Mike Tyson: Exciting and explosive for sure, but not an ATG heavyweight

[HOUDINI563]

ATG would mean said fighter exhibited the characteristics of those considered the best of the best from prior eras. Universally this would include WITHOUT QUESTION determination to fight on and not quit no matter what, will to win, heart, toughness, killer instinct, the ability to land a crushing blow, the ability to take it, cleverness, the ability to slip, block, parry, bob and weave to avoid blows and then counter to vital areas.

[Joe Beamish]

ATG would mean said fighter exhibited the characteristics of those considered the best of the best from prior eras. Universally this would include WITHOUT QUESTION determination to fight on and not quit no matter what, will to win, heart, toughness, killer instinct, the ability to land a crushing blow, the ability to take it, cleverness, the ability to slip, block, parry, bob and weave to avoid blows and then counter to vital areas.

OK, so that rules out Roberto Duran. Not an ATG. I mean, you even used ALL CAPS.

But this is the vaguest azz description I've seen yet. It sucks.

[HOUDINI563]

Vague? It’s very specific. Bottom line is boxing is a known SKILL. There are specific abilities one looks for to determine greatness. Some are intrinsic while many are LEARNED SKILLS.

[Joe Beamish]

Vague? It’s very specific. Bottom line is boxing is a known SKILL. There are specific abilities one looks for to determine greatness. Some are intrinsic while many are LEARNED SKILLS.

QUANTIFY IT, MR. ALL CAPS. How many ATGs are there in total? How many heavyweights?

And are you saying Roberto Duran IS or IS NOT an ATG? Remember, you said that "universally" an ATG doesn't quit "no matter what." Which, if your definition doesn't TOTALLY SUCK, means Duran is OUT.

Which is crazy, but whatever.

Somebody please tell me how many ATGs there are and why.

[Tatabanya]

Tyson was 29 when he fought Holyfield I--that's prime age.
Holyfield was 34 and you could say most boxers are past prime at that age.

To me Tyson was great but not quite ATG due to losses to Douglas and to Holyfield.

Tyson was actually 30 at the time of Holyfield I.

But most of all, he had only won short fights against mediocre opponents after having been in prison for 3 years.

The post-jail version of Tyson cannot even be considered in the evaluation for ATGreatness.

So Muhammad Ali was not an ATG because he lost to Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick?

[johnbook]

Tyson was actually 30 at the time of Holyfield I.

But most of all, he had only won short fights against mediocre opponents after having been in prison for 3 years.

The post-jail version of Tyson cannot even be considered in the evaluation for ATGreatness.

So Muhammad Ali was not an ATG because he lost to Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick?

Well you're right about Tyson's age. Thanks for the correction.

But why bring up Ali, he was 1 month from 40 vs Berbick and years past prime and already had first signs of PD.

Ali is the #1 ATG boxer IMO.

Tyson was still prime and his stint in jail is not an excuse.

Ali had a nearly 3 yr ban and came back to defeat Frazier 2 out of 3 and to defeat Foreman at 32. He won the title for the 3rd time at age 36.

[Tatabanya]

Well you're right about Tyson's age. Thanks for the correction.

But why bring up Ali, he was 1 month from 40 vs Berbick and years past prime and already had first signs of PD.

Ali is the #1 ATG boxer IMO.

Tyson was still prime and his stint in jail is not an excuse.

Ali had a nearly 3 yr ban and came back to defeat Frazier 2 out of 3 and to defeat Foreman at 32. He won the title for the 3rd time at age 36.

I'm not saying that Tyson is more ATG than Ali.

But there are many factors to consider. Basically one can't be but the best of his era, and Tyson - until 1988 - certainly was.

Three years in prison are definitely harder than a mere three-year stop. Tyson's skills were ultimately eroded by those three years (he actually started fading post-Spinks, already).

So the only version that must be judged for ATGreatness is the early one, 1986-1988.

On a secondary note, people such as George Foreman and Bernard Hopkins cemented their legacies well after 40.

[johnbook]

I'm not saying that Tyson is more ATG than Ali.

But there are many factors to consider. Basically one can't be but the best of his era, and Tyson - until 1988 - certainly was.

Three years in prison are definitely harder than a mere three-year stop. Tyson's skills were ultimately eroded by those three years (he actually started fading post-Spinks, already).

So the only version that must be judged for ATGreatness is the early one, 1986-1988.

On a secondary note, people such as George Foreman and Bernard Hopkins cemented their legacies well after 40.

Too short a time interval.