DEBATE: Jimmy Deforest's Quotation Regarding Dempsey's Hand Wraps

[travestyny]

This is regarding a potential debate that was to take place in the Thunderdome section of the site.
BattlingNelson expressed that this would be a more fitting forum for such a debate, and I can see the logic in that, so I am moving it here.

First, to make some things clear:

1. This is NOT about Dempsey using plaster of paris or an iron spike. Both theories have been successfully debunked as far as any sensible person is concerned, in my opinion.

2. This is NOT about stripping Dempsey of any accolades or his stature. No one is arguing that he was less of a fighter than history has deemed him to be.

3. This is NOT about Dempsey doing anything illegal. At this time commissions were very lax, and nothing I say here is concerning legality.


Now that we have that out of the way, I will attempt to say precisely what this IS about.

Here is Jimmy Deforest's quotation:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

As reported by NYTimes pulitzer prize winning sports writer Arthur Daley.

The issue: Is there any solid proof that would lead a rational and unbiased person to believe that this quotation to be describing a lie.

Two posters have been singled out to serve as my opponents in this debate. One is billeau2, who has since stated that his position is undebatable because he simply doesn't know if the statement is true or not. That is fine and I have no problem with that. I've told him that he may decline the offer to participate, but I've gone ahead with inviting him since he has repeatedly told me to make the thread.

The other poster is GhostofDempsey, who claims that this quotation has already been successfully debunked.

Travesty and I did that dance already. I debunked all his claims and so have several other sane posters. He is unable to accept facts, reality or opposing viewpoints and will not admit when he is proven wrong.

My contention is that this was NEVER debunked. What I'm looking for is proof that it has been debunked. I'm also looking for someone who will present evidence that would lead the rational, unbiased person to shift their opinion of this quotation to the realm of disbelief.

Again, I have invited specifically Billeau2 and GhostofDempsey to provide facts that lead the unbiased poster to believe that this statement is false, either by preponderance of the evidence or reasonable doubt, as is the case with our legal system.

I have asked that this debate be judged by at least 3 unbiased judges, and thus far, 2 posters have volunteered. 1 is siablo14 and another is McNulty. I have a few other judges I would like to suggest, and I would like to invite anyone who can demonstrate/pledge that they will look at the information unbiasedly and judge in good faith to volunteer to be a judge here. The judges must be approved by BOTH my opponent and myself. I will recommend the other judges whom I think can show proof of their unbiased character once I am aware of who my actual opponent is.

Also, if anyone reads this and wants to take the place of Billieau2 or GhostofDempsey, that is also fine.

Because this debate has taken so long to get underway for whatever reason that may be, I will go ahead with presenting my evidence immediately. This would give my opponent a chance to review my evidence and develop a refutation, perhaps a disadvantage for me, but at this point I don't care. I believe my side to be very strong and I'm not afraid to put the information out there to be reviewed.

I will begin with a shorter synapsis of my evidence and follow it up with a more detailed post.

The only thing I ask is for everyone to be civil and respectful. We are all capable of behaving like gentlemen even when posting online, I believe.

After I provide my evidence, I will wait for billeau2 and GhostofDempsey to arrive and state whether they will participate or not. They will have first crack at it since they were the original participants. If they decline, I will open it up for another poster to accept the challenge, and we will then work together to secure unbiased judges.

If you read all of that, thank you for your attention. Let's get to it!

[travestyny]

The shorter outline of my evidence:

A. Dempsey's trainer said this:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

This was NOT the only time he said it. He also said it at a press conference (view long version if necessary).

There was absolutely no reason for Dempsey's trainer to lie.

1. He said this less than a year after the fight.
2. He was STILL working with Dempsey when he said this.
3. He CONTINUED to work with Dempsey after saying this.

B. What this trainer said about McCoy can be verified based on a newspaper clip that was from 9 years BEFORE the Dempsey/Willard fight.

San Francisco Call, Volume 107, Number 117, 27 March 1910 -- TRICKS OF THE TRADE OF PRIZE FIGHTERS



The clip tells of exactly the same process that Dempsey's trainer mentioned. Is it just a coincidence, or did someone look into the future and decide that this would be a great way to shlt on Dempsey in the future?

C. Kearns and others statement about the use of bicycle tape:

“I was a product of the days—have they ever ended?—when it was every man for himself,” Kearns would write years later. “In those times you got away with everything possible. Turn your head, or let the other guy turn his, and knuckles were wrapped in heavy black bicycle tape or the thick lead foil in which bulk tea was packaged. The net result was much like hitting a man with a leather-padded mallet.”

Yea, I'm sure he's describing a tape that was soft and harmless. And the quotation had nothing to do with his accusation that Dempsey used plaster. Is he simply hating on bicycle tape…?

Others have also commented on the use of bicycle tape. Here is a sports writer referred to as "one of the greatest" stating that bicycle tape caused great damage:

Mark Kram (author of Ghosts of Manila):

The trade evolved first toward shoddiness, when, among other things, trainers would tape hands with lethal bicycle tape and would use razor blades to relieve swelling.

D. In Dempsey's very next fight, his opponent, Carpentier, asked him to remove the adhesive tape from his wraps. I wonder why?

E. In the Tunney fight, Bicycle tape was PROHIBITED. I wonder why? But some would have us believe it was just a soft tape that was innocuous.

F. Dempsey showed that he was familiar with bicycle tape by writing about specifically using it to make jump rope handles in his book.

G. The author of a book about the life of the promoter of the fight specifically stated that Dempsey's hands were wrapped "around and around with yards of bicycle tape." How would he know? His book was factual and gave lots of insight into the inner workings of various situations at this time. He stated that he couldn't have accomplished this feat without thanking so many people that helped him gain the information to write the book.

1. He thanks Dempsey himself for helping him to write the book. If he were lying about the bicycle tape, why would he be trying to harm Dempsey whom he was thanking for helping him with information? The book was NOT about the Willard fight specifically, and it was NOT about Dempsey’s wraps. In fact, that was the only line about the wraps. There is no reason for him to lie.

2. One of the men he thanks is Ruben Goldberg, WHO WAS IN DEMPSEY'S DRESSING ROOM WHEN HIS HANDS WERE WRAPPED.

3. But he gives a special thank you to someone else:

But I cannot find language to express adequately my debt to my friend Ned Brown, who contributed anecdotes and statistics in great numbers. The great champions of sport never had a finer or wittier mind, nor a kindlier eye than his, observing them from the press section.

NED BROWN WAS ALSO IN THE DRESSING ROOM WHEN DEMPSEY HAD HIS HANDS WRAPPED!

Charles Samuels’s Book’s info. on the proceedings before the Willard/Dempsey fight:

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.

So what we have is:

Jimmy Deforest, the man who would know most about what was done because he wrapped Dempsey’s hands, flat out stating that Dempsey used a specific kind of tape, the same Kid McCoy used that would harden to cause "unusual punishment." No reason to lie.

A clipping about Kid McCoy using bicycle tape that hardens after a period of time to cause significant damage. This was years before the Dempsey Willard fight so it wasn't a retrospective change.

Dempsey HIMSELF may have given away wha happened when he claimed that he wrapped his hands himself using a "black tape." Did he get confused assuming that it was the more common black color of bicycle tape?

Bicycle tape is usually black, but we know it doesn't have to be that color. Duct tape was originally green, not silver. Electrical tape comes in rainbow colors.

Charles Samuel, who wrote a book and thanked Dempsey for his contribution to it, also saying that Dempsey used bicycle tape. The same tape that McCoy was said to use as a "trick of the trade" at least 9 years before the Dempsey Willard fight. Samuel has no reason to lie and got information from 2 people in the dressing room for the Willard fight. He specifically and separately thanks Ned Brown for being a main contributor to his book. The same Ned Brown that was in Dempsey’s dressing room when his hands were wrapped.

Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, goes on record saying that the use of bicycle tape was tantamount to hitting someone with a mallet. Does he have a reason to lie about bicycle tape??? No, because he never accused Dempsey of using bicycle tape. He accused him of something totally different, but was explaining how boxers could basically legally cheat. Others have also been said to state the same thing about bicycle tape.

For this to be false, DeForest would have to be lying, that newspaper clipping from 9 years before would have to be inaccurate, Charles Samuel would have to be completely making up the rendition about what happened in the dressing room out of nowhere, Kearns and others would have to be lying about what bicycle tape could accomplish for no good reason. ONLY KEARNS HAD SOMETHING AGAINST DEMPSEY, AND HE DID NOT ACCUSE HIM OF USING BICYCLE TAPE.


All of these people, some indebted to Dempsey, some currently and continuing to work with him, lying???? And Dempsey never denying this but being known to use bicycle tape specifically by other historians to the point that it had to be prohibited in the Tunney fights and was asked to remove some specific type of tape in the Carpentier fight?

The evidence seems to point to the obvious. Nothing illegal, but a “trick of the trade” was used for an advantage. That’s what it is.

[travestyny]

A bit of a longer post with more backstory and with links. If there is for some reason a statement that you want verified that wasn't linked to, feel free to let me know.

My position: Here is the issue.

Arthur Daley (July 31, 1904 – January 3, 1974, 1956 Pulitzer Prize winner for reporting and commentary--outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association "Sportswriter of the Year" in 1963; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association Hall of Fame in 1976) unearth an article from "The New York Evening Sun June 30, 1920." The article is an interview conducted by Joe Vila (one of the ”more noted boxing authorities of his day" and the first sports writer to use a typewriter at ringside) with Jack Dempsey's current trainer at that time, Jimmy Deforest. The focus of the article was not about Dempsey's past fights, but about Dempsey's future fights, as Deforest was beginning preparations for Dempsey to fight Carpentier. However, there was one paragraph at the end of the article that caught Daley's eye:

DeForest said this:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

Let me note:
1. DeForest was STILL working with Dempsey and would work with him for years after.
2. This was said LESS THAN A YEAR AFTER THE FIGHT.
3. This is NOT the only time that DeForest has said this. It was reported that he said something similar when refuting that Dempsey had used plaster or aluminum.

From Nat Fleischer's 1958 book '50 Years At Ringside' (page 117-119):

Deforest became riled when the loaded gloves stories began to appear. I recall a press conference he had with several reporters, including myself, at which he angrily remarked:

"I regard the stories I put plaster of Paris on Jack's bandages as plain libel. I'm tired of hearing people talk about such nonsense. It's pure trash. These rumors affect my reputations for honesty and fair dealing. I did not apply any foreign substance to them. I used a hard adhesive tape. This certainly was not irregular. It was not against the rules. It was the same kind of tape I always used when I bandaged Kid McCoy's hands."

So this was mentioned once in an interview and once at a press conference.

I think the best way to digest this is to look at its parts.

First:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment."

Is this true? Well here is an article from 1910 entitled "Tricks of the Trade of Prize Fighters" -- mind you...9 years before the Dempsey/Willard fight so that no one can argue that it came out after the fact. I'm posting a picture of the article for authenticity. It tells of the very same technique that DeForest tells of....a tape that hardens after time and causes excess damage.

San Francisco Call, Volume 107, Number 117, 27 March 1910 -- TRICKS OF THE TRADE OF PRIZE FIGHTERS



So it was one of McCoy's "tricks" that he would use a certain kind of tape that after some time hardens. He then would even go so far as to HIMSELF complaining about it so that he could remove all of it except the strips that were across his knuckles, which were said to make his knuckles like "iron." McCoy is known as one of the biggest "cheaters" in the history of boxing, but I'll spare you his stories. What we have here is this "trick" being used by McCoy, the same as DeForest described. Note that this articles points to bicycle tape, and DeForest simply says, "A certain type of adhesive tape." Was it bicycle tape? More discussion of this below, but let's go to the next part of the quotation.

I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected.

First of all, it is true that Willard had representatives watching the wrapping of the hands. Let's go back a bit and tell the whole story.

Willard had already expressed worry about Dempsey's wrapping techniques. He had asked that the fighters enter the ring bare handed and be wrapped in the ring. Tex Rickard, the promoter, agreed to this and announced that it would be so. However, Dempsey's promoter, Kearns, later protested this, and Rickard overturned the decision. This is all documented by newspaper articles and books.

On July 1 the matter was settled. “Jess Willard and Jack Dempsey will go into the ring for the heavyweight championship contest here Friday with bare hands, and all the bandaging and taping will be done in the view of the spectators and seconds of the heavyweight rivals. This announcement was made today by Tex Richard, promoter of the contest.”

Jack Kearns protested against this. The next day tex Rickard reversed his decision and announced that the fighters would tape their hands in their dressing room in the presence of a representative of the rival camp. The change occurred, Doc Kearns said “because of the blazing heat.” Another reason given was that to tape in the ring would create unnecessary delay. Either way, Dempsey entered the ring with hands heavily wrapped in tape and Willard had lost a critical battle to Doc Kearns.”

I'm pointing out the heavily wrapped in tape part, because Jess Willard not only asked that both fighters not use excessive bandaging, but said that he would insist that excessive bandaging would not be used.

Same source as above:

“The rules of the Boxing Commission in Toledo specified soft bandages. Willard declared that he planned to use plain cotton bandages with a couple of layers of surgical tape to hold the bandages in place. “that’s all I care to use, and I think Dempsey should feel the same way about it. I believe it always looks bad to the spectators to see a boxer come into the ring with his hands looking as hard as a club because protected by some heavy material.”

Newspaper quotation:

Willard said that he would insist upon a thin layer of cotton surgical band aces, and only enough tape to hold the bandages in place.

So what we have is Willard already being worried about how much tape would be used and insisting that Dempsey not be allowed to come in with heavy material on his wraps. Clearly Willard's wish was denied, as you can see below. Willard came in with very minimal wraps, while Dempsey came in with his hands heavily wrapped.

Remember, there were very lax rules by the commission at this time. The tape was not deemed illegal. However, is this the same "trick of the trade“ that McCoy used?

It has been said that the type of tape Dempsey used was similar to bicycle tape. Some argue that it couldn't have been bicycle tape because bicycle tape is often black.

1. Tape doesn't have to be a specific color. Duct tape was actually first green because it was used by the military. It was changed to silver when it was later used on houses. Electrical tape comes in a rainbow of colors and black is mostly used because it helps block the sun's rays, etc. This very well could have been bicycle tape, regardless of the color.

2. Deforest doesn't say it was specifically bicycle tape. He said, "A certain kind of adhesive." Who knows what?

3. Now this is interesting. Dempsey himself, many years later, tried to protect himself from the insistence that he used plaster on his wraps. Look what he stated:

Dempsey laughed when he heard of the method his canny old trainer was supposed to have used. Then his eyes hardened and he said; "I put gauze on my hands, then put black tape over the gauze.

First of all, we know he didn't wrap his hands himself. Various eyewitnesses state that ONLY DeForest had anything to do with the wrapping (if link needed, let me know). Second, it's obvious that the wraps weren't black (see above). Could it be that Dempsey is referring to the more common color of bicycle tape, and forgot that the tape was in fact white and not black on this occassion?

It was stated that Dempsey used bicycle tape/and adhesive that would give an advantage before.

1. In the Carpentier fight, Carpentier demanded that he remove the adhesive tape.

In 1921, before the opening bell in Jersey City, Georges Carpentier's manager, Francois Dechamps, insisted that Dempsey remove the adhesive tape on his hands and wear the softer gauze bandages mandated by the New Jersey Boxing Commission.

Also, for the Tunney fight, the use of bicycle tape was PROHIBITED.

A provocative article by widely syndicated sportswriter Grantland Rice was more fodder for the notion that Tunney was a live underdog. Rice noted that Depsey had never had his hands wrapped by anyone but Kearns since graduating from the tank towns. It was Doc's custom to wrap Dempsey's hands with several yards of hard black bicycle tape over a thick cushion of gauze and cotton. For this bout, the fighters were required to enter the ring bare-fisted and their hands would be dressed with inspectors looking on. Bicycle tape was prohibited, forcing Dempsey to fight with far less bandaging than was his custom.

So again, we have Dempsey being linked to bicycle tape. We also know that Dempsey himself was very aware of bicycle tape. He stated in his book that he used it to make handles for a make-shift jump rope:

ROPE-SKIPPING develops stamina, coordination and leg-spring.
At a sports-goods store you can buy a skipping rope (not one of those toy ropes that kids use). Or, you can make a rope by soaking a piece of clothesline overnight in a can of light lubricating oil. Hang up the rope and let it dry out for a day. Then, fold the ends of the rope back and tape them into "handles" with bicycle tape. The skipping rope should be fairly heavy but not too thick. That's why you give it the oil treatment.

Finally, and really the end, here is the words of Charles Samuel in his biography about Tex Rickard, the promoter for the Dempsey/Willard fight. This book is really interesting regarding the inner workings of fights and situations at this time, and not a work of fiction. It is NOT about the Dempsey/Willard fight specifically, and it is NOT about the controversy over wraps.

In this book he personally thanks those who helped him to write it including Ruben Goldberg and Ned Brown. Both men were in Dempsey's dressing room when he was wrapped up. He gave a special thanks to Ned Brown in fact as one of the main contributors. By the way, he also thanked DEMPSEY HIMSELF for helping him to write the book.

Charles Samuel: The Magnificent Rube -- The life and gaudy times of TEX RICKARD (1957)

On the proceedings before the Willard/Dempsey fight:

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.

I've already discussed Willard's direct quotation that he would insist that there be minimal tape used. Seems he already lost that debate and there was no need to protest anything.


So again, we have Dempsey being linked to bicycle tape. Why would Charles Samuel thank Dempsey for helping him write this book and tell a lie about him that would damage him?

Why would Jimmy Deforest lie about Dempsey using this method when it was "a trick of the trade“ that was not illegal.

Again, not illegal, so it doesn’t matter who was watching it being done. It is referred to as a “trick of the trade.”

Sorry for the length of this post, but I need to state one more time for the final record. The man who wrapped his hands and worked for Dempsey currently and continuously had no reason to lie. None. He wrapped the hands. He stated what he did. To claim that he is lying....I don't see a motive to lie. One last time, this is his statement:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

Various sports writers and reporters have accepted this. NOT ONE THAT I CAN FIND HAVE DENIED IT. There is absolutely no reason not to accept it! There were various quotations that I've left out about tape doing damage in other fights, about the punishment that was dished out in this fight, and even about the sound of the punches being strange. I think already what I've outlined would be sufficient to convince an unbiased person that there is absolutely no reason to deny Deforest's statement.

[HOUDINI563]

That's not bicycle tape on Dempseys hands. That's regular hand wraps normally used by most fighters during that time period. Also have you ever tried on the 4-5 oz horse hair filled gloves from that time? They are brick like in of themselves capable of slicing a fighters face to ribbons with or without hand wraps of any variety. I can't envision wraps that harden a bit over time doing anything to further aid the destructive nature of these gloves. I would venture to say more damage would occur to the fighters hands than the opponents face.

[travestyny]

That's not bicycle tape on Dempseys hands. That's regular hand wraps normally used by most fighters during that time period. Also have you ever tried on the 4-5 oz horse hair filled gloves from that time? They are brick like in of themselves capable of slicing a fighters face to ribbons with or without hand wraps of any variety. I can't envision wraps that harden a bit over time doing anything to further aid the destructive nature of these gloves. I would venture to say more damage would occur to the fighters hands than the opponents face.

Charles Samuels was given information by two people who were in the dressing room when Dempsey was wrapped. He wrote that it was indeed bicycle tape.

Also, what reason would Dempsey's trainer have to lie? That's the point.

Wouldn't it be an odd coincidence that DeForest says he used the same type of adhesive tape on Dempsey that he often used for Kid McCoy, which hardens, and there is an article about Kid McCoy using bicycle tape that hardens to cause increased damage, and in a book in which one of the main contributors was in Dempsey's dressing room it is stated that Dempsey used bicycle tape?

That's a very, very big coincidence.

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.

[HOUDINI563]

That's not bicycle tape on Dempseys hands. Do you even know what bicycle tape looks like? The evidence or lack thereof is right within that photo.

[travestyny]

That's not bicycle tape on Dempseys hands. Do you even know what bicycle tape looks like? The evidence or lack thereof is right within that photo.

And you are basing that on what? The color?


Tape can be any color. I already covered this.

Duct tape was originally green, not silver. It was used by the military and changed to silver when it began being used for houses.

Electrical tape can be any color.


So what evidence do you have that it wasn't bicycle tape besides saying that it isn't bicycle tape.

Because I think I've provided more than enough evidence for this to have been most likely bicycle tape, which by the way it was said that Dempsey was known to use. Which is why it was prohibited for the Tunney fight.

[HOUDINI563]

Bicycle tape was never white in color in those days. White would pick up soil and grime easily from the hands. Try to find a photo from that time period of a bike with white tape. But just LOOK at the wraps. Do you have eyes? Standard hand wraps of the day.

[HOUDINI563]

The other point is the typical manner to wrap hands is via gauze like wrappings with adhesive tape holding the wrappings in place.

[travestyny]

Bicycle tape was never white in color in those days. White would pick up soil and grime easily from the hands. Try to find a photo from that time period of a bike with white tape. But just LOOK at the wraps. Do you have eyes? Standard hand wraps of the day.

The other point is the typical manner to wrap hands is via gauze like wrappings with adhesive tape holding the wrappings in place.

So then you have no proof? It's just what you believe?

1. You said this was normal tape. Jimmy Deforest says this was not normal tape.

2. You said this was not bicycle tape. Charles Samuel worked closely with 1 guy in the dressing room and also credited another guy in the dressing room for this fight. He said it was bicycle tape.

3. Maybe you are confused only by the color. That's ok. Dempsey might have been confused as well when he tried to retell what happened. What color did Dempsey say the tape was?

Dempsey laughed when he heard of the method his canny old trainer was supposed to have used. Then his eyes hardened and he said; "I put gauze on my hands, then put black tape over the gauze.

Maybe he also assumed it was the more common color. It clearly isn't black, but no one involved says it was normal tape (which I believe would have been surgical tape, as Willard stated he wanted).

Another coincidence that he assumed the tape was black for this fight?

By the way, Dempsey also helped Charles Samuel write that book. Dempsey never disputed that it was bicycle tape.