Ray Robinson at MW..

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Top 10? Outside of Monzon and Hagler who are you dreaming up that might possibly beat the Robinson who stopped Lamotta? Please do not say Hopkins. McClellan and Jackson would not last long, they would be too outclassed and out experienced as boxers IMO.

If Robinson is not at least a top 5, something is wrong in Mudville. I say he is top 3, and the conversation should begin there. But if you want to begin it at 9 or 10, I will accept that. Please begin.

I got no beef with putting robinson as top 3. I was just briefly explaining how he is AT LEAST in the top 10.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Robinson was a great middleweight but not the greatest,,, he had many losses to lower caliber guys there..

Jones
Toney
Monzon
Hagler
Hopkins
Greb
Nunn (at his peak)
**** tiger
Mickey walker

All would have a chance to beat robinson at 160,,,

[The Old LefHook]

I got no beef with putting robinson as top 3. I was just briefly explaining how he is AT LEAST in the top 10.

Okay. You know, it is not exactly a given that Monzon or Hagler could handle Lamotta. A fair tournament cannot be conducted on earth but only from heaven, where the fighter comes in fresh everytime, and all face each other at least once.

I will first propose a list of the top ten middleweights, and see if we can come to any kind consensus on that. It has nothing to do with legacy, longevity, etc., but strictly who-beats-who head up matches. Since it is imaginative anyway, we can imagine a double elimination tournament. The heavenly fighters are very durable.

1 Lamotta
2 Jones jr.
3 Robinson
4 Hagler
5 Monzon
6 Cerdan
7 Ketchel
8 Jackson
9 Langford
10 Greb

I like this list. It is mysterious. I see no reason to enter guys we know most of the fighters on the list would beat. Other than Robinson, Lamotta and Cerdan, no one here faced each other. Greb and Langford fought a six round newspaper fight some thought was a draw. More went with Langford, though.

[The Old LefHook]

Robinson was a great middleweight but not the greatest,,, he had many losses to lower caliber guys there..

Jones
Toney
Monzon
Hagler
Hopkins
Greb
Nunn (at his peak)
**** tiger
Mickey walker

All would have a chance to beat robinson at 160,,,

Are you out of your mind? Other than Greb, the last half of your list is insane. These guys cannot make it in the tournament. See my list above for a real list.

[Suckmedry]

SRR is a far superior fighter to Hopkins but imo at 160 Hopkins has a good shot to win.

People forget Ray would have been getting in the ring at around 160, Hopkins at least 175 probably.

Hopkins 6''1 to SRR at 5'11

Dont get me wrong Ray could win but Hopkins holding a solid weight advantage playing spoiler is a tough out for anyone.

[The Old LefHook]

SRR is a far superior fighter to Hopkins but imo at 160 Hopkins has a good shot to win.

People forget Ray would have been getting in the ring at around 160, Hopkins at least 175 probably.

Hopkins 6''1 to SRR at 5'11

Dont get me wrong Ray could win but Hopkins holding a solid weight advantage playing spoiler is a tough out for anyone.

You bring up an imperfection with the system we use. We generally conduct all mythical matchups under yester era's conditions. But most of the modern champions could not even make the weight on the same day, as fighters did in former times, and have any strength. This is a real flaw.

Why? Because Hopkins, if he weighed that much for middleweight at fight time in his own era, would be greatly weakened by same day weigh-ins.

The truth is, anyone who needs day-before weigh-ins to make the weight, is not a middleweight anyway. A Hopkins who has to make the weight the same day, gets crushed by any great middleweight who made it easily on the same day, not just by Robinson.

I am glad you found the flaw. If they fight under today's conditions, Hopkins is allowed to safely rehydrate 10-15 pounds, and Robinson, who cannot rehydrate, because he does not need to, is obviously not fighting a middleweight. Dig? So yeah, he might lose.

Under yester year's regimen when you had to make the weight the same day as the fight, I believe Hopkins gets creamed because he is too weakened. He will have drunk so much water that Robinson will quite literally beat the p*ss out of him. That's an i not a u.

It is the lower weight classes' version of what we experience when we try to rate the smaller heavyweights of yesterday, many of whom weighed under 200, with the new mega-sized galoots. You see right away something is wrong. Something is wrong in the lower weight divisions, too.

What this means, as I tried to explain recently, is that in a P4P match there has to be appropriate "frame shrinking." Witness, man. The fair match between Robinson and Hopkins is not a middleweight matchup at all, but a P4P one. Hopkins has to lose an inch or two of vital dimensions, if he wants to actually fight him at middleweight, either that or let Robinson expand up to his size, because I do not think he wants to fight him drained, under 1950 weigh-in procedures.

Once the men are very nearly the same size, how is Hopkins going to win? He is a great boxer, tough, with a good chin, but is too slow and does not hit hard enough to overcome a Robinson his equal in size.

The long and short of it is the men fought in two different divisions with the same name.