Ray Robinson at MW..

[1g5a22]

SRR was a great fighter, in fact probably the greatest p4p (between him & Greb but little footage exists of Greb so you have to lean towards SRR) fighter to date. But I take issue with the fact that on many discussion forums a lot of people seem to rank him as the greatest MW ever which I find a bit off. Don't get me wrong he is up there, but the best ever? He wasn't a dominant long reigning MW & had tons of losses at the weight. Great wins sure but lets look closer:

-1-2-1 with the great Gene Fullmer (though SRR probably lost 3 of them)
-0-2 to Paul Pender
-1-1 with Denny Moyer
-1-1 with Carmen Basilio
-Loss to Ralph Jones
-1-1 with Randolph Turpin
-5-1 with LaMotta (though many think Lamotta won AT LEAST another 1!)

Losses also to Terry Downes, Mick Leahy, Joey Giardello & Phil Moyer (though he was severly ageing by this point)..

He did beat Rocky Graziano & Bobo Olson though.

In terms of ALL of the following: Dominance, resume, longevity etc I can't rank him higher than the Monzons, Haglers or maybe even Hopkins of the world. (I don't know enough about Greb so maybe some of you can enlighten me)..

Do you have SRR as the greatest MW ever?

[antk]

I agree with you. Robinson was almost unbeatable as a welterweight but nearly all his fights at middleweight, apart from a few-like Graziano, were tough battles.
Still an all-time great though!

[Ray Corso]

Study harder, Graziano was NOT a great challenger Robinson almost killed him.
Robinson's losses at 160 were against solid fighters he was NEVER stopped!!
Do you even know who Ralph Jones was? You forgot two losses to Stan Harrington when Robinson vacationed in Hawaii Harringtons home turf!

I just might make a video on how to evaluate boxing talent and skills so that
opinions can be based on FACTS not opinions.
To stir the pot using ATG fighters is the most useless post used on here, it's like comparing Wlad to Ali as to greatness!

I go fishing for a few weeks and then theres this childs play on the History Forum.

Sugar Ray Robinson would spank Bernard Hopkins, he had more power and was far ahead of Hopkins in the skills department. He fought far better competition and Hopkins backing away trying to play counterman would get him hurt badly!
Monzon would be a good challenger other than that Robinson at "His Best" beats everyone!

study study study there is a right way and wrong way to box, Robinson did everything GREAT!

Whats next Pep wasn't a very good mover? .............

Ray

[The Old LefHook]

Everyone should know Robinson was closer to his physical prime as a welterweight. He fought middleweights and what we now call junior middleweights for much of his welterweight tenure, just to have fights, and because he was not worried about anyone near his own weight.

Partying ages you too. During the earliest part of his official middleweight years we get a very good and well seasoned Robinson who is kayoing Olsen for the Pennsylvania middleweight championship. Still, I will take him a few years earlier when he was closer to physical peak and already vastly seasoned, as I have argued elsewhere.

Imagine no WWII. Imagine things ideally as they should be. Robinson then gets his title shot as early as the end of 1943. By the end of 1945 the sensation is ready to move up. When he beats Zale, who was tough but made for him, they will have at least one more fight. After that, it is Robinson who will be taking the challenges of Lamotta, Cerdan and a younger Graziano.

If he goes to Europe to fight Cerdan, I expect him to lose the first one, just like he lost to Turpin and for the same reason. What a fight the rematch of that would be, probably held in New York just like the Turpin rematch.

My own wager is that Robinson or Cerdan will emerge top dog when the ideal era's wars are over.

But since we are saying ideal era, that means that guys like Charley Burley get their crack, too. I think the other murderer's row guys can be handled, but with Burley fairly in the mix, we probably get a different history, and one that, frankly, would not be as exciting, for I believe Burley would handle Zale, too, and Robinson would be the one working his way through the rest of the pack to get to Burley. That will be a really tough fight for Robinson. Burley has everything he has except killer instinct, and a style designed to take advantage of killer instinct. His Burley fights will look a lot like his Gavilan fights, which are not action classics.

We do not know if Cerdan or Lamotta could eliminate Burley from the Fab Four, but I am pretty sure that Graziano would not be capable, on average, since anything can happen on a single night, meaning I would not bet on him at even odds against Burley.

Robinson, Burley, Cerdan, Lamotta. There is a Fab Four that would have been, if we had an ideal world, or at least one with better timing.

Lamotta might handle Cerdan and Burley himself. Then it would come down to he and Robinson anyway. Several more of their fights would have occurred at MW, in that case. We already can guess confidently at the overall results of those, because the only difference from their actual fights would be that the weights were more fair to Robinson.

Of course in a fully ideal world Robinson will probably have to challenge Burley, who started two years earlier than him, for the welterweight title at the end of 1943. Though not geared for action, that fight will display speed levels similar to early Roy Jones. They would be more exciting and dangerous than the Gavilan fights. Realistically, if the word can be used here, Robinson may be fighting someone else for the title Burley vacates to move up to MW. There you go, a better world already, and probably more accurate.

[10,000 Days]

Study harder, Graziano was NOT a great challenger Robinson almost killed him.
Robinson's losses at 160 were against solid fighters he was NEVER stopped!!
Do you even know who Ralph Jones was? You forgot two losses to Stan Harrington when Robinson vacationed in Hawaii Harringtons home turf!

I just might make a video on how to evaluate boxing talent and skills so that
opinions can be based on FACTS not opinions.
To stir the pot using ATG fighters is the most useless post used on here, it's like comparing Wlad to Ali as to greatness!

I go fishing for a few weeks and then theres this childs play on the History Forum.

Sugar Ray Robinson would spank Bernard Hopkins, he had more power and was far ahead of Hopkins in the skills department. He fought far better competition and Hopkins backing away trying to play counterman would get him hurt badly!
Monzon would be a good challenger other than that Robinson at "His Best" beats everyone!

study study study there is a right way and wrong way to box, Robinson did everything GREAT!

Whats next Pep wasn't a very good mover? .............

Ray

I think you're conflating hand to hand matchups with career accomplishment. To me, ranking fighters means comparing their Résumé's to one another, NOT who would win in a head to head match-up. Robinson may be the greatest Welterweight but as far as best Middleweight is concerned, I'm not sure I'm convinced.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

I wouldn't rank Robinson based on his comeback years which were from 1955-1965. He was 33-44. During his best years from 1940-1952 he was beaten at middleweight 2 times and one of those he was outweighed by Lamotta by 16 pounds and he came back to stop Turpin immediatley after. So yeah, I would say he ranks at least in the top 10 as an ATG MW.

[The Old LefHook]

I wouldn't rank Robinson based on his comeback years which were from 1955-1965. He was 33-44. During his best years from 1940-1952 he was beaten at middleweight 2 times and one of those he was outweighed by Lamotta by 16 pounds and he came back to stop Turpin immediatley after. So yeah, I would say he ranks at least in the top 10 as an ATG MW.

Top 10? Outside of Monzon and Hagler who are you dreaming up that might possibly beat the Robinson who stopped Lamotta? Please do not say Hopkins. McClellan and Jackson would not last long, they would be too outclassed and out experienced as boxers IMO.

If Robinson is not at least a top 5, something is wrong in Mudville. I say he is top 3, and the conversation should begin there. But if you want to begin it at 9 or 10, I will accept that. Please begin.

[1g5a22]

Sugar Ray Robinson would spank Bernard Hopkins,

H2H time machine match ups are not relevant. I also said 'MAYBE' too..

Dominance, longevity, resume & win to loss ratio combined are all criteria I apply when considering this topic

Monzon held the Undisputed World Middleweight Championship for 7 years. He successfully defended his title 14 times. 87-3-9-1 at MW is impressive.

Hagler reigned as the undisputed middleweight champion from 1980 to 1987. He made twelve defenses of the undisputed title.

I rate both over SRR. Hopkins lacks noteable wins so I can see why he wouldn't..

Greb might just be greater than all of them but I am not an expert on his career.

[1g5a22]

Top 10? Outside of Monzon and Hagler who are you dreaming up that might possibly beat the Robinson who stopped Lamotta?

You are conflating different topics. This is about all time ranking not h2h.

[ShoulderRoll]

H2H should be considered along with resume when coming up with all time rankings, in my opinion.