Dempsey Overrated?

[embryo]

FIRST OF ALL - I AM NOT SAYING HE IS OVERRATED.

Ok now that that's out of the way...

I just have a simple question. How come, with only 5 title defenses over s pan of 7 years, and never regaining a title after losing it, or avenging a loss, is Dempsey always, ALWAYS ranked as like a top 5 HW of all time and even top 10 or 20 p4p all time? What makes him better than guys like Holmes, Tyson, Patterson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Walcott, etc. Some lists have these guys behind or ahead of Dempsey but in my opinion, most of them should be ahead of him. I obviously wasn't around when he was fighting, I've only seen the films that the rest of us have seen. He got whooped by Gene Tunney twice, who wasn't a great fighter (or was he? I don't see how..) The only reason people even know who Tunney is is because he beat JD.

Anyway I won't go on a long rant, which I tend to do, as you'll notice as I beging to post more here so i'll leave you with that. Appreciate all opinions, all respect to everyone. Not trying to offend anyone or piss anyone off, I know people are sensitive about the fighters they love, ESPECIALLY Jack Dempsey, I heard about what an icon he was. Well thank you in advance for any replies, Please don't hate me for asking this question.

I am not saying he is overrated, I am simply saying, can we discuss whether he may be?

[rightsideup]

I guess the biggest reason Jack is so highly thought off is his popularity and aggressive style. gene tunny is also rated high in all time pound for pound rankings and jacks losses to him were considered to be after his prime yet in the second fight there was the controversial long count. He was voted best fighter of the first half of the 20th century over such greats as joe Louis , sugar ray robinson, henry Armstrong and Harry Greb. This in my honest opion is popularity. Fans seem to like punchers over boxers and his style was contusive to his popularity.

[Welsh Jon]

Dempsey should never be rated top 5 at heavyweight.

Top 5 most popular or most exciting yes. Top 5 greatest heavyweight of all time? No chance.

[billeau2]

FIRST OF ALL - I AM NOT SAYING HE IS OVERRATED.

Ok now that that's out of the way...

I just have a simple question. How come, with only 5 title defenses over s pan of 7 years, and never regaining a title after losing it, or avenging a loss, is Dempsey always, ALWAYS ranked as like a top 5 HW of all time and even top 10 or 20 p4p all time? What makes him better than guys like Holmes, Tyson, Patterson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Walcott, etc. Some lists have these guys behind or ahead of Dempsey but in my opinion, most of them should be ahead of him. I obviously wasn't around when he was fighting, I've only seen the films that the rest of us have seen. He got whooped by Gene Tunney twice, who wasn't a great fighter (or was he? I don't see how..) The only reason people even know who Tunney is is because he beat JD.

Anyway I won't go on a long rant, which I tend to do, as you'll notice as I beging to post more here so i'll leave you with that. Appreciate all opinions, all respect to everyone. Not trying to offend anyone or piss anyone off, I know people are sensitive about the fighters they love, ESPECIALLY Jack Dempsey, I heard about what an icon he was. Well thank you in advance for any replies, Please don't hate me for asking this question.

I am not saying he is overrated, I am simply saying, can we discuss whether he may be?

it does seem like unpopular opinions get chastised here but in reality its more how intelligently an opinion is expressed. Here are a couple of observations that I have had regarding the Dempsey situation:

First off disabuse yourself of the notion that Tunney was not a great fighter. Tunney fought Grebb, Gibbons, Carpentier battlin levinsky among others. To fight competatively against Grebb, much less beat him was quite an achievement in itself...then to eventually beat Dempsey, without the strength of a big heavyweight is a marvel. It would be comprable to james Toney beating Roy Jones and then going up and beating Lennox lewis or Tyson. While there are some questions about Dempsey....there really are none about Tunney.

The main reason why Dempsey is heralded in my humble opinion, is that many of the premiere trainers who saw generations of heavyweights....even some who saw up to the modern era, pretty much all say Dempsey was, either one of the best, or the absolute, unequivical best. They say that Jack's feraciousity, will, strenght and power were unequalled....some say that Iron Mike was in that category, but none seem to think any other heavy weight had the intensity of Jack on game day!

These men some of whom had seen Jack Johnson, and many of whom have/had seen up to Lewis all seem to think that Dempsey had such speed that his attack could simply not be handled.

Anyhow thats my reasoning. When you watch these guys on film the film does not do them justice but as ray often tries to point out, if you know what to look for: the angles, the untelegraphed/effieint movements (dempsey could KO you in a telephone booth) the ability to roll with a punch and counter a punch.... You can begin to see why some of the old timers are held in such high esteem.

[billeau2]

I guess the biggest reason Jack is so highly thought off is his popularity and aggressive style. gene tunny is also rated high in all time pound for pound rankings and jacks losses to him were considered to be after his prime yet in the second fight there was the controversial long count. He was voted best fighter of the first half of the 20th century over such greats as joe Louis , sugar ray robinson, henry Armstrong and Harry Greb. This in my honest opion is popularity. Fans seem to like punchers over boxers and his style was contusive to his popularity.

I think Armstrong was another.....A guy who could throw for round upon round without relenting!

[Weltschmerz]

I have Dempsey somewhere in top 15 as an all time heavy. One of my personal favorites all time.

[greeh]

I guess the biggest reason Jack is so highly thought off is his popularity and aggressive style. gene tunny is also rated high in all time pound for pound rankings and jacks losses to him were considered to be after his prime yet in the second fight there was the controversial long count. He was voted best fighter of the first half of the 20th century over such greats as joe Louis , sugar ray robinson, henry Armstrong and Harry Greb. This in my honest opion is popularity. Fans seem to like punchers over boxers and his style was contusive to his popularity.

It probably also has something to do with the weight he campaigned at. Doesn't nearly every notable heavyweight suffer from this to a greater or lesser degree though, i.e. their popularity elevates them to a level they might not belong at/deserve?

[soul_survivor]

don't think dempsey would rank in a top 5 now, maybe top 10 but most likely top 20. he was aggressive and hit damn hard but his title run was mediocre at best and he was as lazy a champion in terms of defenses as any I know. No doubting he was great for his era but he wouldn't be top 5 in my book.

[El-blanco]

don't think dempsey would rank in a top 5 now, maybe top 10 but most likely top 20. he was aggressive and hit damn hard but his title run was mediocre at best and he was as lazy a champion in terms of defenses as any I know. No doubting he was great for his era but he wouldn't be top 5 in my book.

Totally different era. It's almost impossible to surmise what he'd be like today, hell who knows if he'd even choose to box if he lived in our era.

[Scott9945]

Generally speaking, when you are talking about famous fighters, they will always be both overrated and underrated. People who want to imagine that Dempsey would be just a mid level cruiserweight if he were fighting now are being naïve. And maybe those who he think he would go through Lewis and Klitschko as easily as he did Willard are too.