Kostya Tszyu-where does he rank?

[Scott9945]

Well in Britain and perhaps Europe as a whole the WBO title was respected then but irrespective of that Tszyu was clearly the 140 pound king for at least a few years.



Whether a fighter does or does not, deserves too or deserves not to get into the modern section of the International Boxing Hall of fame is pretty irrelevant to how good a fighter is. You even provide evidence of the foolishness of that argument with your sentence about Chavez.

Tszyu wasn't 'shot' against Hatton but he was an old champion with some injury problems up against a quality younger fighter at the apex of his career development. A classic case of the quality older fighter passing the torch to the next generation. On top of that he was fighting in Hatton's own backyard, with everything that entailed in regards to advantageous refereeing. None of that is an excuse for why he lost, it is just the reality of things but this loss is also not a strong argument against Tszyu's career.

Judah 'schooled' him in the first round? Come on, he loses the first round of a fight and then knocks the opponent out in the second and you think that is evidence against Tszyu? I agree that with hindsight Judah was not as good as many believed around the time of the Tszyu fight, too many were blinded by his speed as if fast hands equates to high skill (Gary Russell effect?) however Judah has been a fine fighter and Tszyu surely defeated the best version of him.

What makes Hatton rank higher?

That really is ridiculous. At the time the fight ended, Judah was ahead 10-9 and Tszyu was never in any trouble whatsoever. It would be like saying Gamboa schooled Crawford in the first round. Totally irrelevant.

[BennyST]

Oyyyyy my schmeckles! A second round KO, which no one else has gotten close to doing to Judah, even a shot version, and yet it somehow goes against Tszyus credibility because he lost the first round? One round?

Judah looked brilliant, even dominant against Maywather. Do you seriously tell yourself the same thing? Same thing against Cotto. Easily won the early rounds and had Cotto reeling. Do you now use that as an argument against Cotto being great? Despite the fact both came back to win.

Hatton ranked higher than Tszyu? Alrighty then.

Btw, from memory, Hatton has about eight champions fought at 140. He lost to two of those by KO. About three of the others were very over the hill.

Tszyu has about fifteen less fights, and fought double the amount of champions at 140. Their runs don't compare.

Hatton beat Tszyu and Carlos ****ing Maussa for his title wins. Two current champions, though I balk at calling Maussa a champion. Tszyu beat Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Miguel Angel Gonzalez and Jake Rodriguez for his title wins. All multiple, long time champions. That's not going into their defenses etc and pre title wins.

[Anthony342]

So is Kostya Tszyu the best in history at 140? Or one of the best? Top 5? I still have this career set to watch, sounds like it'll be a good one.

[Cardinal Buck]

Oyyyyy my schmeckles! A second round KO, which no one else has gotten close to doing to Judah, even a shot version, and yet it somehow goes against Tszyus credibility because he lost the first round? One round?

Judah looked brilliant, even dominant against Maywather. Do you seriously tell yourself the same thing? Same thing against Cotto. Easily won the early rounds and had Cotto reeling. Do you now use that as an argument against Cotto being great? Despite the fact both came back to win.

Hatton ranked higher than Tszyu? Alrighty then.

Btw, from memory, Hatton has about eight champions fought at 140. He lost to two of those by KO. About three of the others were very over the hill.

Tszyu has about fifteen less fights, and fought double the amount of champions at 140. Their runs don't compare.

Hatton beat Tszyu and Carlos ****ing Maussa for his title wins. Two current champions, though I balk at calling Maussa a champion. Tszyu beat Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Miguel Angel Gonzalez and Jake Rodriguez for his title wins. All multiple, long time champions. That's not going into their defenses etc and pre title wins.

Can you be any more selective?

Hatton also stopped and dominated a still good Castillo (nobody ever did that), dominated Paulie, beat Urango when he was undefeated, and moved up to squeak out a win over Collazo for a title--not his best performance, but he got the W and became a multi weight champ, unlike Zoo. He only lost to the absolute elite, not f ucking Vince Phillips. Oh, and he beat Kostya Tszyu.


For Zoo, Gonzales was shot and Mitchell was injured the first time and shot the second time. So he's got either Hurtado or Jake Rodriguez as his second best win, which isn't all that much. The Judah fight was basically a 140 pound version of Lewis-McCall I. Sure, it was a good win, but Zoo turned down the rematch despite there not being any other meaningful fights at 140.

[billeau2]

I think you're talking that a little too literally, but I think that fight is a good example of why Zoo was a very good but kind-of limited fighter and not an atg. He struggled a lot in that fight against a so-so fighter, and his limitations were shown.

Zoo has zero wins over future HOF fighters, unless you count the corpse of Chavez.

He was stopped by Vince Phillips and quit against Hatton at a time when, contrary to internet-forum belief, he wasn't shot. How that loss gets subtracted from his resume is beyond me. He never avenged either.

His career defining win was against Judah, who turned out not be quite as good as everyone thought anyway. Judah schooled him for the first round and was never given a rematch.

The rest of his resume is very unspectacular. Mitchell had knee issues in those fights…so that probably leaves Hurtado as the next best win.

He also had one of the worst mullets in boxing.

I rank prime Hatton higher.

At the time of the Judah fight Zab was one of the best fighters in the sport, I believe he was undefeated (don't quote me on that). That win was impressive considering the natural assets of Judah which nobody had figured out a way to tap yet. The Zab that Zoo beat was considered at the time incredibly fast, excellent power etc.

Not sure I don't agree with your conclusion but credit where credit is due.

[billeau2]

Oyyyyy my schmeckles! A second round KO, which no one else has gotten close to doing to Judah, even a shot version, and yet it somehow goes against Tszyus credibility because he lost the first round? One round?

Judah looked brilliant, even dominant against Maywather. Do you seriously tell yourself the same thing? Same thing against Cotto. Easily won the early rounds and had Cotto reeling. Do you now use that as an argument against Cotto being great? Despite the fact both came back to win.

Hatton ranked higher than Tszyu? Alrighty then.

Btw, from memory, Hatton has about eight champions fought at 140. He lost to two of those by KO. About three of the others were very over the hill.

Tszyu has about fifteen less fights, and fought double the amount of champions at 140. Their runs don't compare.

Hatton beat Tszyu and Carlos ****ing Maussa for his title wins. Two current champions, though I balk at calling Maussa a champion. Tszyu beat Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Miguel Angel Gonzalez and Jake Rodriguez for his title wins. All multiple, long time champions. That's not going into their defenses etc and pre title wins.

Benny

people have short selective memories. They look at Judah now and forget that when Zoo fought him he was being compared to Roy Jones and other greats. Zoo beat a version of Judah that, all things considered was indeed quite a challenge you are correct

[Scott9945]

At the time of the Judah fight Zab was one of the best fighters in the sport, I believe he was undefeated (don't quote me on that). That win was impressive considering the natural assets of Judah which nobody had figured out a way to tap yet. The Zab that Zoo beat was considered at the time incredibly fast, excellent power etc.

Not sure I don't agree with your conclusion but credit where credit is due.

Judah was unbeaten and a 3-1 favorite over Tszyu. It was a big win at the time and I believe that carries weight, just like when Calzaghe beat Lacy.

[Cardinal Buck]

Judah was unbeaten and a 3-1 favorite over Tszyu. It was a big win at the time and I believe that carries weight, just like when Calzaghe beat Lacy.

Sounds a lot like Hatton's position going into the Tszyu fight.

[Cardinal Buck]

At the time of the Judah fight Zab was one of the best fighters in the sport, I believe he was undefeated (don't quote me on that). That win was impressive considering the natural assets of Judah which nobody had figured out a way to tap yet. The Zab that Zoo beat was considered at the time incredibly fast, excellent power etc.

Not sure I don't agree with your conclusion but credit where credit is due.

I don't completely agree with what you're saying. Judah had already been floored numerous times early in fights in a similar way. Tszyu just got a better shot in than the other guys.

The issue I have is that Tszyu refused the rematch even though there was pretty much nothing out there for him. He should've taken the rematch and proven he could break Judah down.

[Scott9945]

Sounds a lot like Hatton's position going into the Tszyu fight.

Maybe, but Tszyu was 35 and had only two fights in the previous three years. So he was clearly closer to the end than his prime.