Why is Benny Leonard so Great

[rightsideup]

I think the lightweight division has cases for three goats that being leonard, duran and gans. p4p I would rate duran higher because of his wins at higher weight classes. Leonard may have a better lw resume than duran but Roberto fought the best of his era. I wonder if duran would have had a bigger lw rep if he had a faded Ortiz on his resume?

[TBear]

I always held Benny Leonard in high regard based on Ray Arcel's word.

[IronDanHamza]

Resume not good enough?

In my eyes he's clearly got the best resume in Lightweight History

Lew Tendler
Rocky Kansas
Jack Britton
Johnny Kilbane
Johnny Dundee
Willie Ritchie
Freddie Welsh

A lot of those multiple times.

And that's just the top of the iceberg.

Pretty great resume if you ask me.

[Ray Corso]

The OP doesn't know the fighters mentioned above and typically thinks because theres losses from a KO or tko theres something WRONG!
The generation who thinks you can't be great unless your undefeated is so misguided by the Mayweathers or Calzaghes of the world. Against the greatests welter kings Mayweather gets beaten up same for Calzaghe against the great middles. Hell Sugar Ray Robinson beats them both at their weights.
Leonard was a technician and his Methods weren't interupted even by excellant boxers.

Leonard was stopped in his first bout as a kid then was stopped 3 more times in his next 7 fights! Thats the "beginning" of a great fighter, do you understand?
His career finishes with;
183 W (70 by stoppage)
24 L
8 D
4 nc (no contest)

this is an outstanding record and he fought trememdous fighters from that era many times!
That being said his intelligence in the ring was unmistakable and his willingness to out smart and and out fight his opponents made him a crowd pleasure! Remember your pay grew as you gave the fans great performances. There were no ppv this was LIVE Boxing! The boxing fans who supported their favorites did so inperson not on a chair at home.
If Arcel states Benny as a giant then he is, because Arcel was one of the best if not THE best in boxing. Ray.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Resume not good enough?

In my eyes he's clearly got the best resume in Lightweight History

Lew Tendler
Rocky Kansas
Jack Britton
Johnny Kilbane
Johnny Dundee
Willie Ritchie
Freddie Welsh

A lot of those multiple times.

And that's just the top of the iceberg.

Pretty great resume if you ask me.

No one is dis*****g his resume,, the question is "is he the GOAT at LW"

Duran or Ike or Gans or Pernel or ortiz or arguello,, could they not beat the guys listed,, Is Leonard better than the guys i just listed

[Sugar Adam Ali]

The OP doesn't know the fighters mentioned above and typically thinks because theres losses from a KO or tko theres something WRONG!
The generation who thinks you can't be great unless your undefeated is so misguided by the Mayweathers or Calzaghes of the world. Against the greatests welter kings Mayweather gets beaten up same for Calzaghe against the great middles. Hell Sugar Ray Robinson beats them both at their weights.
Leonard was a technician and his Methods weren't interupted even by excellant boxers.

Leonard was stopped in his first bout as a kid then was stopped 3 more times in his next 7 fights! Thats the "beginning" of a great fighter, do you understand?
His career finishes with;
183 W (70 by stoppage)
24 L
8 D
4 nc (no contest)

this is an outstanding record and he fought trememdous fighters from that era many times!
That being said his intelligence in the ring was unmistakable and his willingness to out smart and and out fight his opponents made him a crowd pleasure! Remember your pay grew as you gave the fans great performances. There were no ppv this was LIVE Boxing! The boxing fans who supported their favorites did so inperson not on a chair at home.
If Arcel states Benny as a giant then he is, because Arcel was one of the best if not THE best in boxing. Ray.

Your about the most condescending poster on here,,,, how the hell do you know what fighters i know, and what fighters i dont,,,,

Did you watch those guys live,,,

Who the **** said anything about being undefeated, being the be all to being a great fighter,,,

I clearly said he got stopped early in his career when he was still young, prime, and past prime,,,, I wasnt knocking him...

But i know your an expert because you read ray arcel,, so now you dont have any critical thinking skills and cant think for yourself,


So just shut up with your ****** lectures, and your ****** stories about tyson when he was 12,,, no one cares anymore, you have talked about them to death, and in general please stop being such a douche,,,

I have been watching boxing for 30 years,, its not like my first fight i watched was floyd-cotto or something,,,,


In your whole bloated post, who never once explained why leonard is better than duran, ike, ortiz, pernel, etc.....

So next maybe read and comprehend, but thats probably hard for the ancient generation your from, since all you apparently due is rip your thoughts off of ray arcel and others... --sugar adam ali

[IronDanHamza]

No one is dis*****g his resume,, the question is "is he the GOAT at LW"

Duran or Ike or Gans or Pernel or ortiz or arguello,, could they not beat the guys listed,, Is Leonard better than the guys i just listed

You did dispute it, didn't you? You said that his resume isn't strong enough to be the #1 at LW.

From where I'm sitting, that's the best LW resume that I've seen, atleast.

It doesn't matter if they could beat the guys listed. What matters is their resumes and none of their resumes compare to Leonard's IMO.

I think Arguello would beat most of those guys. I think Mayweather would beat most of those guys. I don't rank neither even anywhere near to Leonard. Not even anywhere close to Top 10 either.

Leonard is extremely skilled aswell. Pretty much ticks every box.

[RubenSonny]

You did dispute it, didn't you? You said that his resume isn't strong enough to be the #1 at LW.

From where I'm sitting, that's the best LW resume that I've seen, atleast.

It doesn't matter if they could beat the guys listed. What matters is their resumes and none of their resumes compare to Leonard's IMO.

I think Arguello would beat most of those guys. I think Mayweather would beat most of those guys. I don't rank neither even anywhere near to Leonard. Not even anywhere close to Top 10 either.

Leonard is extremely skilled aswell. Pretty much ticks every box.

It's an advantage to those fighters one on one with each, but to realistically fight through Leonards career they would have lost too. I don't think it's close going off pure resume, Ortiz is probably the closest.

[IronDanHamza]

It's an advantage to those fighters one on one with each, but to realistically fight through Leonards career they would have lost too. I don't think it's close going off pure resume, Ortiz is probably the closest.

Agreed 100%. With everything.

I have Leonard #1, Ortiz #2. On my LW List.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

You did dispute it, didn't you? You said that his resume isn't strong enough to be the #1 at LW.

From where I'm sitting, that's the best LW resume that I've seen, atleast.

It doesn't matter if they could beat the guys listed. What matters is their resumes and none of their resumes compare to Leonard's IMO.

I think Arguello would beat most of those guys. I think Mayweather would beat most of those guys. I don't rank neither even anywhere near to Leonard. Not even anywhere close to Top 10 either.

Leonard is extremely skilled aswell. Pretty much ticks every box.

I wasnt trying to discredit his resume in terms of ATG, i just dont see how he can be considered so highly as the GOAT, over guys like duran, etc...
He was clearly a great fighter no doubt, but if you think all the other greats beat the guys he did, than how can you say for certainty he is the GOAT...
I just feel leonard doesnt separate himself far enough from duran, etc to be universally declared the GOAT,, whose to say henry armstrong would bum rush leonard and beat all those other guys if he was in that era...
Ali is considered the GOAT at heavy because his resume is outstanding, and other great ATGs would be hard pressed to match Ali's success in the 60s and 80s.. I dont think joe louis or holyfield, or lewis, or wlad, or marciano would have been as successful in Ali's era as Ali was,, but on the other hand I think duran, ortiz, ike, armstrong, pernell, floyd, etc would achieve the same success has leonard did,,
I personally feel that leonard gets high praise for being the one of the first true well known lightweight kingpins and dominant champ,, Now nearly a hundred years later, we have a long history of champs, so it is harder to stand out

It's an advantage to those fighters one on one with each, but to realistically fight through Leonards career they would have lost too. I don't think it's close going off pure resume, Ortiz is probably the closest.

Yeah i think your absolutely right. Resume plays a big part of the defining one's ATG status but you also have to give weight to the person's skills.. Guys like burley or langford never scored the big career defining title fights like others have, but that doesnt mean they are any less great, boxing has too many politics in it to base stuff solely on resume IMO

And yes i think guys would have lost some fights 2 if they had fought leonard's career, his resume is very impressive, but i think your right about carlos ortiz, the more i read about him, the more i lean towards him being top 3 ATG at lw and may even been in the conversation of the GOAT..
Over the last few months Ortiz has become one of my favorite fighters to study....