The most skilled fighters?

[billeau2]

Another for consideration may be Gene Tunney. Again all fighters have speed, strength, agility to a degree. But with a guy like jack Johnson we see excessive strength, speed to aid in his already cunning mindset. With Joe Louis we see muderously fast punching power.

Tunney was technically accomplished. He was not a murderous puncher, nor blindingly fast, or really that big and strong. He won on technically being superior and not having a weakness to exploit.

When we train we develop the ability to mend weaknesses. Klitschko Vlad holds on for dear life so his chin is not exposed...for example. When we train we develop technique. Mayweather uses angles, footwork, accuracy...all qualities that can be trained.

[SlySlickSmooth]

[greeh]

I don't think so. I think he has technical excellence which is not natural ability. He may have been fast and perhaps reflexes might be the ONE trait...remember you said we could have one trait.

First off all, I haven’t doubted that he is technically skilled. But he clearly had/has world class speed of both foot and hands, and great reflexes. That’s two physical gifts. Along with his good chin, and pretty decent power in his lighter weight class days, it’s clearly that he had some incredible physical attributes and gifts that exceeds the criterion I set. Don’t tell me something else.

Just do me one favor and watch carefully. Mayweather has incredible technique. It is untelegraphed and straight as an arrow. This takes practice but the quickness it facilitates is not the same as raw speed. Again take two seminally great fighters of this generation Floyd and Jones. Jones has all natural ability, speed, reflexes, etc. When he beat Toney, a gifted technician one can see how these natural abilitites colesce. Mayweather by comparison is technically almost perfect.

Why would I watch him carefully? I have watched him. And once again, he is technically sound. I haven’t said that he’s constantly throws looping and wide punches. And once again, he CLEARLY has world class speed. Would you for example say encourage a fighter without any notable physical gifts, at average as best in every department, to watch, learn and encourage to fight like Mayweather? If you are wise, you don’t. Unless he has Floyd's incredible physical gifts, he will probably get KTFO.

Most people assume Mayweather is a natural without watching carefully for the traits that make him great. They also forget about the times Mayweather has been temporarily challenged....why? because Mayweather asjusts to his opponent. Mayweather has trained out any weaknesses that can be exploited.

He sure as hell has natural talent. And did I say that he is a dumb fighter? No, he is intelligent, but he still has too many world class traits, whether you like it or not.

I take this thread as a serious discussion and as such I would encourage you to watch and observe carefully with no pre-judices about Mayweather.

I have “carefully” watched Mayweather, and it’s about as obvious as that the sun is yellow as there is that he has too many world class traits for my criterion. I can watch him with unbiased eyes, which someone else don't seems capable of…

By the way, discussions is always fun, but don’t give me a turd and tell me it’s gold.

/greeh

[greeh]

mayweahter is a highly schooled boxer with a finely tuned style, but he has a slew of gifts. he is lightning fast of hand and upper body, and in his youth his feet were some of the best. his reflexes, as you alluded to, are some of the best you will ever see. instincts in boxing are learned / taught and drilled, but the ability of the mind to react quickly is something with which you are born.

This!
Good post NE.

/greeh

[toooooool]

Roy Jones Jr,

Lets be honest....When Roy Jones Jr. made James Toney look like a chump,
everyone couldn't believe what they were seeing..Then Jones,destruction
of Griffin in the second fight was frightening...He had already made Hopkins
look ordinary in '93...then he became the heavyweight champion of the
world in 2003..,the truth is Roy Jones is one of only a couple fighters in
history who could have beat ANY fighter in any weight division on any given
day!!..The truth is the betting odds would never have been against Jones
against any fighter in history!...astounding!!..

[billeau2]

First off all, I haven’t doubted that he is technically skilled. But he clearly had/has world class speed of both foot and hands, and great reflexes. That’s two physical gifts. Along with his good chin, and pretty decent power in his lighter weight class days, it’s clearly that he had some incredible physical attributes and gifts that exceeds the criterion I set. Don’t tell me something else.




Why would I watch him carefully? I have watched him. And once again, he is technically sound. I haven’t said that he’s constantly throws looping and wide punches. And once again, he CLEARLY has world class speed. Would you for example say encourage a fighter without any notable physical gifts, at average as best in every department, to watch, learn and encourage to fight like Mayweather? If you are wise, you don’t. Unless he has Floyd's incredible physical gifts, he will probably get KTFO.




He sure as hell has natural talent. And did I say that he is a dumb fighter? No, he is intelligent, but he still has too many world class traits, whether you like it or not.



I have “carefully” watched Mayweather, and it’s about as obvious as that the sun is yellow as there is that he has too many world class traits for my criterion. I can watch him with unbiased eyes, which someone else don't seems capable of…

By the way, discussions is always fun, but don’t give me a turd and tell me it’s gold.

/greeh

Turd huh? your a bit manical about category especially considering your lack of defining a criteria. You arent even willing to consider that people may be putting the cart before the horse regarding a guy like Mayweather because apparently you know it all.... i will try one more time to make an intelligent i.e. provocative point and then you either get it or you don't. This is not a matter of ageeing or disagreeng as I am quite certain people may disagree with my point about Mayweather...its a matter of casually dismissing an argument without understanding your very own precious criteria.

When we compare fighters we need to compare them based on similar attributes. Your silly criteria does not consider whether when we talk of a champion whether we are refering to his technical vis a vis outstanding gifts versus every other fighter, or with respect to elite, champions.

I assume I am comparing Mayweather to fighters of a similar calibre....if not please say so! I am sure that compared to most 300 pound guys Butter Bean is greased lightening, just not so fast compared to Vlad Klitschko perhaps? If you get my drift? Heres another example, Roy Jones fighting Lou Devalle....obviously Jones would be superior in virtually every category...but so what? What makes Jones a natural phenomena....I would presume...is when he is compared to fellow elites like Toney, McCallum, Hopkins. It turns out that Jones is a phenomena...he is much faster, has better refexes and this is what allows him to dominate FELLOW elite fighters. Therefore JOnes would not qualify according to a rational criteria about natural gifts versus trained gifts.

If we take Mayweather and compare him to fellow great fighters he has fought....people like Mosley, Judah, De La Hoya, Cotto etc.... What we see is that compared to other great fighters Floyd has fought, Floyd is certainly not the fastest, Mosley and Judah are perhaps better punchers and faster....Floyd is not the strongest....Cotto and De La Hoya might be stronger, or at least are similar when compared...Floyd has good feet but not better enough so this stands out...In fact the only thing that stands out is Floyd's technical ability and accuracy...Both of which can be trained my friend!

You like so many others are arguing backwards...namely you assume that because Floyd is so good, he must have outstanding natural gifts that others do not possess. My point in asking you to look at that perspective is to get you to ask "why couldn't those attributes be the result of hard work given that despite Floyd's ability there is no physical trait which puts him in a unique category....No blinding speed like Ali or Jones. no murderous punching ability like Louis or Bear, No great physical strength like Hagler....No great reach like Hearns.... you get the idea.

You assume that in a nature versus nurture type argument that Floyd could not just be exceptionally well trained, technically accomplished and physically prepared through his training environment.

Now I have tried you either get it or you don't.

[Barn]

Harold Johnson
Carlos Monzon
Alexis Arguello

My 3 favourite fighters, coincidentally.

Monzon is probably the best name you're gonna get!

In some segments of his fights Monzon looks mind numbingly slow and mechanical to the point that you wonder how the hell he ever won the MW title. However his sense of distance, timing and accuracy were something else.

[New England]

Monzon is probably the best name you're gonna get!

In some segments of his fights Monzon looks mind numbingly slow and mechanical to the point that you wonder how the hell he ever won the MW title. However his sense of distance, timing and accuracy were something else.

as were his chin, power, and somehow gas tank.

[Barn]

as were his chin, power, and somehow gas tank.

In Argentina, cigarettes and alcohol are good for you!

Monzon did have very heavy hands and a great beard, you're right! However given the criterion sort of implying that it was 'skill-based' physical attributes that were disallowed. Things like speed, reflexes and whatnot I feel Monzon is an excellent choice.

[NearHypnos]

Paulie Malignaggi.


And I know, some might consider it reflexes but it looked like raw skill and instinct as opposed to just raw speed and reflexes... So yeah I'll say Nicolino Locche. Dude got the short end of genetics....but that anticipation/skill/instict was all he needed.