Why could past ATGs knock out guys 40 pounds bigger than them...

[RubenSonny]

Speed, physical strength and stamina are somehow irrelevant in boxing? If you are maintaining that they are irrelevant then the idiocy lies with you.

Where did you pick that our from? Where did I say that? s=Still you haven't actually replied to the poitns made in the post.

[Scott9945]

Dehydration is only a problem over a certain level. Canelo's chances could certainly be hindered should he make 152 and make it the wrong way. However I think there is a good chance he may not even try to make it.

To be honest compared to the fighters Mayweather has beaten Ketchel's opponents were bums. There are a lot of current fighters, including ones Mayweather has beaten who will rightly not be considered all time greats or hall of famers but are quite considerably better than all time greats and hall of famers from the distant past.

We've gone about as far as we need to on this topic without becoming redundant. But as far as Canelo deliberately missing weight, I would love to see that happen after what Floyd pulled on JMM. But the penalties for missing weight this time are likely much more severe. Mayweather is certainly no fool when it comes to negotiating contract terms.

[Ray Corso]

There is NO weight class to fight at heavyweight! Its an OPEN division.
Its always been that way!
The way to solve all the catch weight crap when it pertains to the title matches is to weighin the morning of the fight!!!
To much emphasis on size and not enough on form and skill, thats why to me Louis over rides Wlad size because he's fasr more talented than Wlad, just as an example. Simply break the fighters down and evaluate truthfully and its fairly easy to see.
I know that just about anyone who could punch at all can hurt another man especially if its an unseen punch. Punching power differences from 119 to 240 are certainly obvious but that ratio deminished when you move to 175 to 240 in fact they can get even very quickly. I trained fighters for close to 50 years and handled heavies at 235 who couldn't punch hard at all and others at 190 who could crack! ts to individualistic to make a blanket statement. I'll take the skilled fighter with technique over the oversized guy everytime. Talent counts in the ring! Ray

[Humean]

Where did you pick that our from? Where did I say that? s=Still you haven't actually replied to the poitns made in the post.

These things I mentioned have improved in sport over time, you suggested that the improvements (those things I mentioned) that have taken place in other sports , namely sprinting and long jump, are irrelevant to boxing. Therefore I did reply to the points made in your post, it is just that you failed to understand.

[B-Bomber]

For idiots who point to better records in athletics like sprinting/high jump etc that bears no comparison to boxing. Relatively conservative movements/limited technique where you're trying to beat a record in which opponents are irrelevant is going to improve over time (objectively), is absolutely different to a range of dynamic movements and creativity exhibited over a scheduled duration in which the goal is to outpoint an unpredictable opponent, not to mention its a hugely subjective contest.

I tend to agree,

It's a bit like saying that I can take a better picture with a modern mobile phone than Doisneau ever could with his black and white camera.

Creativity is a factor in sports like boxing.

Pele is still considered by many the best football player who ever lived, in spite of the improvements in training and nutrion. Maradona has never been a good athlete, but was great.

Back to topic, I think it's far more accurate to say that nowaday boxers are generally better athletes , this for a series of reasons.
First and foremost, modern boxing is about marketing and is simpler to invest on a good athlete. Speed, conditioning, endurance etc. are all factors that can be improved.

It is much harder to find real talent, believe in it and promote it.
I think of a guy like Nicolino Locche, surely a great talent, though he smoked, wasn't much into training hard and didn't even have a powerful punch.
I don't think such a guy would be even given a chance today (unless his surname is Chavez )

[Humean]

There is NO weight class to fight at heavyweight! Its an OPEN division.
Its always been that way!
The way to solve all the catch weight crap when it pertains to the title matches is to weighin the morning of the fight!!!
To much emphasis on size and not enough on form and skill, thats why to me Louis over rides Wlad size because he's fasr more talented than Wlad, just as an example. Simply break the fighters down and evaluate truthfully and its fairly easy to see.
I know that just about anyone who could punch at all can hurt another man especially if its an unseen punch. Punching power differences from 119 to 240 are certainly obvious but that ratio deminished when you move to 175 to 240 in fact they can get even very quickly. I trained fighters for close to 50 years and handled heavies at 235 who couldn't punch hard at all and others at 190 who could crack! ts to individualistic to make a blanket statement. I'll take the skilled fighter with technique over the oversized guy everytime. Talent counts in the ring! Ray

There is no de jure limit but there is clearly a de facto one. Nobody in there right mind would step into the ring with a 245 pound Wlad Klitschko if they weighed only 189 pounds like Rocky Marciano! There is a reason that so many heavyweights today try to approach the weight of Wlad and the like when they are only 6'2" or 6'3", and it is not laziness. The really heavy guys of the past, guys that Joe Louis knocked out such as Abe Simon 255, Buddy Baer 237-250 and Primo Carnera 260 were pretty damn useless.

Could a 200-215 Joe Louis beat a 245 Wlad Klitschko? Quite possibly if he could get past the reach, which is questionable with his slow foot movement. Louis would really struggle to take Wlad's punch. The point is that with comparable skill a 245 fighter is more than likely to beat a guy at 210. You are correct that the ratio does diminish as the weight increases though.

[RubenSonny]

These things I mentioned have improved in sport over time, you suggested that the improvements (those things I mentioned) that have taken place in other sports , namely sprinting and long jump, are irrelevant to boxing. Therefore I did reply to the points made in your post, it is just that you failed to understand.

No you are very ******ed. I explained why any comparison between the evolution in boxing is irrelevant. How do you know these things have greatly improved in boxing? Do you have any proof/ Or is it mere conjecture? The speed and power you speak of in those sports do not have the same meaning as speed and power in boxing, you are the one who has failed to understand.

[Humean]

I tend to agree,

It's a bit like saying that I can take a better picture with a modern mobile phone than Doisneau ever could with his black and white camera.

Creativity is a factor in sports like boxing.

Pele is still considered by many the best football player who ever lived, in spite of the improvements in training and nutrion. Maradona has never been a good athlete, but was great.

Back to topic, I think it's far more accurate to say that nowaday boxers are generally better athletes , this for a series of reasons.
First and foremost, modern boxing is about marketing and is simpler to invest on a good athlete. Speed, conditioning, endurance etc. are all factors that can be improved.

It is much harder to find real talent, believe in it and promote it.
I think of a guy like Nicolino Locche, surely a great talent, though he smoked, wasn't much into training hard and didn't even have a powerful punch.
I don't think such a guy would be even given a chance today (unless his surname is Chavez )

Weak analogy because great photography cannot be delineated in the way a fight can.

Pele or Maradona may be the greatest two players in football history but that does not mean they would be anywhere near as good if they were around today in the same condition and form as they were in their heyday. Like other sports football has progressed. Maradona could not possibly have been as great as he was if he wasn't a great athlete, he was a great athlete in his day compared to the athleticism of other players at that time.

Locche would still be quality today because his defensive prowess was clear. He just might not make much money.

[Humean]

No you are very ******ed. I explained why any comparison between the evolution in boxing is irrelevant. How do you know these things have greatly improved in boxing? Do you have any proof/ Or is it mere conjecture? The speed and power you speak of in those sports do not have the same meaning as speed and power in boxing, you are the one who has failed to understand.

If these particular things have improved in other sports what reason is there to doubt their improvement in boxing? What proof do you have to doubt it, mere conjecture? I agree they do not have as great a significance as they do in other sports, I never said they did, indeed I said earlier that it was debatable whether boxing has improved since roughly the 1930s or so onwards. It is not a matter of debate whether sprinters or long jumpers have improved. This thread turned on whether there was improvement from the first few decades of the 20th century onwards.

[B-Bomber]

There is no de jure limit but there is clearly a de facto one. Nobody in there right mind would step into the ring with a 245 pound Wlad Klitschko if they weighed only 189 pounds like Rocky Marciano! There is a reason that so many heavyweights today try to approach the weight of Wlad and the like when they are only 6'2" or 6'3", and it is not laziness. The really heavy guys of the past, guys that Joe Louis knocked out such as Abe Simon 255, Buddy Baer 237-250 and Primo Carnera 260 were pretty damn useless.

Could a 200-215 Joe Louis beat a 245 Wlad Klitschko? Quite possibly if he could get past the reach, which is questionable with his slow foot movement. Louis would really struggle to take Wlad's punch. The point is that with comparable skill a 245 fighter is more than likely to beat a guy at 210. You are correct that the ratio does diminish as the weight increases though.

That is hilarious ...

You speak of Louis' supposed weak competition and then you don't mention Ali or Foreman, no , you mention Wladimir Klitschko!.

Watch some tape, everybody with eyes can see that Baer, Simon and Carnera were much better than the likes of Wach, Pianeta, DaVarryl Williamson etc. etc.

And Louis would struggle to take Wlad's punch?. Louis was no Sam Peter, he would finish you. Wlad suffered knock out losses to Sanders and Brewster yet Louis is the one to struggle?.