Harry Greb

[sonnyboyx2]

Says the guy who flies off the handle whenever someone else's opinion of certain fighters differs from yours. What's the point of a forum if not to exchange views? I find numerous comments of yours inaccurate and I've backed up what I've said with evidence, which you've mostly ignored. Your choice. No need to get snarky.

i have said throughout this topic that i respect your opinion but my mind was made up a long time ago on how i think those 5 fights unfolded...i am just as big a fan of Harry Greb as you obviously are of him and i am not depreciating him or his achievements but i am sticking to my judgement, yes you have put up a good case for Greb winning their 2nd fight and i again agree there is a strong case for you being correct yet if you read round 4 and round 13 of the Washington Post - round by round i posted earlier it is obvious that Greb was behind from the start and did not win the fight. so going back and forth with tid-bits is not going to change anything not your opinion or my opinion... Peace!

[sonnyboyx2]

What hasn't been mentioned is the role of Billy Gibson. He was in Greb's corner as his second for the first fight but by the second fight he was Tunney's manager.
Gibson lobbied the New York boxing commission to protect Tunney against Greb's fouling.
This certainly loomed large over the fight and before the fight began there was the amusing sight of Tunney standing still while Greb demonstrated on Tunney's body various blows he would use and asking for the refereee Haley's ruling.
Though it undoubtedly inhibited Greb and Tunney had certainly wised up after the first fight and Greb felt Tunney hit him low in every round.
The judges were split and the referee having the deciding vote gave it to Tunney.
The next day Haley declared "that Greb's foul tactics, including holding and butting, influenced the verdict which he and the judges gave to Tunney, despite the Pittsburgher's apparent margin on points"

I certainly shared Sonny's view for many years and it was the concensus that Greb won the first then Tunney sussed him and won the other 4. Over the years the 4th fight has been changed to a draw and a lot of doubt has been cast on the second fight so it doesn't look as clear cut as it was

Tunney complained after their first fight that his nose was broken by a headbutt in the opening round, The referee gave instructions to both fighters before there 2nd fight about dirty tactics and throughout the fight the referee issued several warnings to Greb about illegal tactics with there being little doubt that Greb did commit fouls during the fight and it has been reflected by the referees scoring of the bout.

[GJC]

IMO Greb's best chance of beating Dempsey would have been 1920 as i am of the opinion that Greb was very much on the slide by 1923/24...

Think Dempsey would have had too much for Greb in 1920 and I think you may be right re Greb slipping but I think it might be a case of who was slipping the fastest. Personally I think Greb was really fading around 1925 and in 1923 was in pretty good sdhape. My theory on Greb and Dempsey is very much based on timing maybe akin to Michael Spinks and Holmes if you follow me?

Greb being P4P the No1 of all times i cannot go along with as Ray Robinson's record was superior to Greb's IMO.. it is a terrible shame we have no film-footage of Harry Greb in which to view as i am sure he would resemble Aaron Pryor

Agree with the film it really does penalise Greb in these debates. Re records its a coin toss IMO I grew up on SRR so it is hard for me to pick against him but I think Greb has Armstrong and Langford pipped.
I haven'y totally give up hope on some film after all the Greb training/sparring film only come to light in 1991. Always felt for Jim Jacobs who died a couple of years before it came to light, he said he's trade everything he had for anything on Greb.

[GJC]

Tunney complained after their first fight that his nose was broken by a headbutt in the opening round, The referee gave instructions to both fighters before there 2nd fight about dirty tactics and throughout the fight the referee issued several warnings to Greb about illegal tactics with there being little doubt that Greb did commit fouls during the fight and it has been reflected by the referees scoring of the bout.

I know Muldoon said "Whilst the fight was a rough one, Greb was no more blameable than Tunney"
Not that I blame Tunney for giving as good as he got. Not taking away from Tunney for him to get in the ring against Greb after the 1st fight does him credit let alone another 4 times. Just think that maybe Greb deserves more credit than he has been given for the subsequent 4 fights and do think that Gibson's lobbying did colour the fight.
It does seem that Greb's reputation did him few favours at times, I think it certainly swayed the judges to Flowers in the last 2 fights they had and to get disqualified against Norfolk after being butted out the ring must have taken some doing!

[sonnyboyx2]

Think Dempsey would have had too much for Greb in 1920 and I think you may be right re Greb slipping but I think it might be a case of who was slipping the fastest. Personally I think Greb was really fading around 1925 and in 1923 was in pretty good sdhape. My theory on Greb and Dempsey is very much based on timing maybe akin to Michael Spinks and Holmes if you follow me?

Agree with the film it really does penalise Greb in these debates. Re records its a coin toss IMO I grew up on SRR so it is hard for me to pick against him but I think Greb has Armstrong and Langford pipped.
I haven'y totally give up hope on some film after all the Greb training/sparring film only come to light in 1991. Always felt for Jim Jacobs who died a couple of years before it came to light, he said he's trade everything he had for anything on Greb.

your correct GJC there is definate fight-film footage of Harry Greb vs Mickey Walker but wether it will ever be unearthed and shown in our lifetimes is another story, Greb complained about the heat of the lights above the ring after the Walker fight with the lights being there for the filming of the fight. the most likely owner of that footage will be Walt Disney who bought the Big Fights Inc. there is footage of Greb signing to fight Walker on Youtube along with some sparring footage so its my guess the fight is archived by them to protect there investment yet boy would i like to watch that.

[GJC]

your correct GJC there is definate fight-film footage of Harry Greb vs Mickey Walker but wether it will ever be unearthed and shown in our lifetimes is another story, Greb complained about the heat of the lights above the ring after the Walker fight with the lights being there for the filming of the fight. the most likely owner of that footage will be Walt Disney who bought the Big Fights Inc. there is footage of Greb signing to fight Walker on Youtube along with some sparring footage so its my guess the fight is archived by them to protect there investment yet boy would i like to watch that.

The irony of Disney presenting Greb is wonderful, think your chances are better than me of seeing it . Apparently the 1st Tunney fight and the last 2 Flowers films were filmed too?

[Barn]

The irony of Disney presenting Greb is wonderful, think your chances are better than me of seeing it . Apparently the 1st Tunney fight and the last 2 Flowers films were filmed too?

I thought it was all on Nitrogen film or something so it degraded after many years and was lost.

[GJC]

I thought it was all on Nitrogen film or something so it degraded after many years and was lost.

Think it's silver nitrate film which I understand lasts for about 70-80 years so the chances are pretty much gone unless it has been copied I guess

[sonnyboyx2]

Think it's silver nitrate film which I understand lasts for about 70-80 years so the chances are pretty much gone unless it has been copied I guess

i think it will have been transfered over the years.. Walt Disney bought Big Fights Inc. for around $160 million there is no way they was paying that kind of money for fights of Joe Louis & Muhammad Ali etc... it is the turn of the century footage which they have invested in of fighters like Greb, Leonard, Gans, Langford etc.. i have Johnson vs Willard full fight and the quality is as good as anything i have seen from the 1960s if not better, i cannot see how Harry Greb and Mickey Walker would not be filmed.

[louis54]

i wonder what happened to that dempsey- greb bout. maybe after dempsey annilhated firpo, greb was figured not to have a chance. actually for 8 rounds id have bet on greb; not 15 though. i think the pryor analogy to greb's style is very appropro. greb best ever- i too go with robinson, but greb i think was number 2.