Rank these hw's H2H

[Die Antwoord]

I know Lewis struggled with a few smaller fighters, which is why I give Liston a better chance than say Foreman or Ali. But struggling does not equal losing..Lewis defeated everyone he ever faced , and I believe Liston would be another name on that list..

Lennox has an 84 reach and he moved 4X as fast as Chuck Wepner or any of the other names you mentioned. It would be a nightmare for Liston and I wouldnt be surprised if he quit on his stool.

And these "smaller fighters" you speak of were 6'2, 237 lbs and strong as an ox. (Mercer,Mccall) Who did Liston ever beat that was 230+ ?

Let me save you some time. Sonnyboy adds 1 inch per 20 years to a fighter. So if a fighter fought 50 years ago, they are 2.5 inches taller. (oh and he rounds up for past fighters and down for current fighters). Also current fighters automatically lose 2 inches in height. He lists Listons reach at 86'' yet ive never seen it over 84'', ask him where he got his info...he wont tell you. I assume he wrote a book himself, and keeps all the data there.

Dont be modest Joeyzagz, you know that Lewis would kill Liston. You know it and I know it. I know you look at Listons wins and say...hey why are 52 of these guys not even the size of modern day heavies? Or hey, sure Liston knocked out Williams, but wasnt Cleveland previously KO'ed by a LHW named Bob Satterfield...I touch on how bad Satterfield was in my Lee Oma who was KO'ed 17 times but still got a title shot thread.

[frankenfrank]

Let me save you some time. Sonnyboy adds 1 inch per 20 years to a fighter. So if a fighter fought 50 years ago, they are 2.5 inches taller. (oh and he rounds up for past fighters and down for current fighters). Also current fighters automatically lose 2 inches in height. He lists Listons reach at 86'' yet ive never seen it over 84'', ask him where he got his info...he wont tell you. I assume he wrote a book himself, and keeps all the data there.

Dont be modest Joeyzagz, you know that Lewis would kill Liston. You know it and I know it. I know you look at Listons wins and say...hey why are 52 of these guys not even the size of modern day heavies? Or hey, sure Liston knocked out Williams, but wasnt Cleveland previously KO'ed by a LHW named Bob Satterfield...I touch on how bad Satterfield was in my Lee Oma who was KO'ed 17 times but still got a title shot thread.

sonnyboyx2 is lunatic and so are most of his post but the truth that can explain it to extent is that today stats are more exaggerated than in the past. Doesn't meant they weren't exaggerated in the past.
But yes , sonnyboyx2's posts' ridicule is beyond this fact .

[Toney616]

First of all im not going to read all that because youre a boxrec warrior.

How much of what I typed above is listed on boxrec, which only gives you stats?

Liston tried to cheat against Ali, when it failed and he was getting worked he with drew. That is a fact.

-That is not a fact, at the time many poeple accused Dundee of blinding Ali, because they knew his brother was a big time gangster with money on Liston.
-The Nation of Islam also accused Dundee
-Dundee says that linament for a cut on Sonny's face must of accidently got on the gloves
Source: The ghosts of Manila by Mark Kram
Also Ali isnt really in the position to talk about cheating, I know what he was doing post exile

Liston was KTFO by a punch that Ali thought didnt even land..

When the fight was stopped, was Liston up and fighting or was he flat on the canvas? Also the fact that you even admit it didnt even land tells you it was a dive, which helps you how exactly?

Liston was 2 years younger than Vitali is now when he got KTFO by Leotis Martin.

Stop boxrecing
No one knows how old Sonny really was. I dont think he knew himself.

Lewis has actually KO'ed people over 225 lbs

Who has Lewis koed over 225 worth mentioning? Bruno? Morrison?
Whether a fighter has a granite chin or not, doesnt always depend on how much they weigh. Wlad comes to mind

Harder to hit someone whose chin is further away with true power, just a fact dude. Its called physics. Not that difficult..

The reason its harder to hit the bigger guys tends to be mainly because they are allowed to get away with a lot of clinching.
Frazier hit Ali
Tyson hit Biggs
Haye hit Valuev
3 journeyman hit Wlad
etc, etc

Where do you get Liston had stamina? Please one example of him showing stamina. The longest 15 rounder he was ever in went 7 rounds and he quit. He went past 10 rounds 1 time. ONCE.

He quit due to a shoulder injury, the FBI thought the fight was fixed which is why they asked Liston's doctor for the medical reports which confirmed what Liston said.
Source: Liston & Ali - Bob Mee

Ross Purrity at least wasnt 180 lbs like the guy who ko'ed liston early in his career and Wlad's other KO's (and I wont even talk about the drugging) were to guys bigger than the largest guy Liston ever fought.

Size doesnt always equal power, surely you must know that? Liston quit in the Ali fight due to a shoulder injury, like Vitali did. Neither of them was ktfo

Wlad has a better right and Left hook than anyone in the game. His straight right "Is the damned hardest thing I ever saw." -Emanuel. Wlad is a killer out there. His chin is so much further away than Listons, are you serious? kid Dynamites punches would have to travel a hell of a long way to reach it.

Because his trainer says something, therefore it must be true? Cleveland Williams left hook is much better than Wlads as well As for the chin being firther away please stop with all of that stuff, a number of opponents shorter than him have found it just fine. This thread wasnt even about Wlad, you brought him up, as a very very bad example.

As for Vitali vs. Tyson. Vitalis a master at distance and even when he is hit theres no power i it because he has great reflexes and the ability to move back due to the fact that he is 6'8. He couldnt do that to a similar sized Lewis, but to smaller guys...game over, he can see their punches a mile away and knows he can take them easy.

Chris Byrd landed punches on Vitalis head a number of times. Tyson is faster than Lewis and he would be going to Vitali's body not just focussing on the head. Think Tyson-Biggs

Foreman's an arm puncher he wouldnt knock down the unknockdownable object that is Vitali.

Foreman has to be one of the biggest punching hw off all time, thank god he was only an arm puncher

[Toney616]

I will concede that Liston has the best chance of beating Lennox out of all the current or past Heavyweights, but that doesnt mean it will happen.

Liston has never faced anyone with the same reach as Lewis
Liston has never faced anyone as tall as Lewis
Liston has never faced anyone over 230 lbs

Liston vs Lennox would be like a small pitbull meeting a Lion for the first time. Maybe the dog gets lucky, but i'll still take the Lion.

This is a thread for peoples opinions, no one here can be 100% right or wrong on anything, for the record I have no problem with people disagreeing with me on any of this stuff

[Toney616]

The elbows he rocked Spinks , Holmes , Bruno and others with , I thought you watched Tyson's fights

He used a elbow against Biggs, when Biggs kept on holding him
He used a elbow against Bruno, because Bruno kept holding and rabiit punching him
He didnt use them in the Holmes or Spinks fights

If he won't take it will work for him, Foreman's only opponents larger than himself were Savaresse and Cooney , both not exactly on Lewis' level.

Why are you so obsessed with size?
He is a big punching hw who comes forward and throws bombs, how many of those bombs can Lewis take? Foreman also hit harder than McCall and Rahman, so it is not pushimg the limits of possibiliy to say he could ko Lewis as well

If Savaresse , Morisson and Briggs could last the distance against Foreman quite successfully , what makes you think Lewis couldn't ?

Foreman at that point in time would of been fat and in his 40's i.e far from his prime

Actually Mercer was not comparable even with the shot Foreman.

Iron chin, big puncher, not very good boxing skills, sound familiar?

Watched it at least 2 times , Holyfield definitely did not dominate him and I don't score fights round by round.

The quote I was responding to:

he struggled much more against a 39 years old Holyfield .

You said he struggled with Holyfield, and now you are saying he didnt struggle with him?
You should score fights round by round

Vitali fought Lewis , Puritty , Sanders and Arreola ..

Leiws fights nothing like prime Foreman, Foreman was a slugger while Lewis was a boxer/puncher
As for your other comparisons:

Qawi with his acting and turning his back did not fight straight as well

How do you know he was acting. He was doing quite well, until a Foreman punch landed on his back. He was also clearly exhausted

I did not watch them , but you did not either so know you don't know Liston and how lousy he really was.

He would of been a green contender i.e not prime. And if you havent seen those fights or have a review of those fights then how can you judge his performance in them?

Bruno and Smith 2 .

Then you would know that like Norton, Witherspoon used the "crab defense", which would of stopped Ali's two main punches, which were the left jab and straight right,........right?

[frankenfrank]

He used a elbow against Biggs, when Biggs kept on holding him
He used a elbow against Bruno, because Bruno kept holding and rabiit punching him
He didnt use them in the Holmes or Spinks fights

Then you forgot about the Spinks fight more than I did.
The Holmes fight I watched only 2 times and not very recently , but I remember Tyson used elbows in most of his fights during his "prime" .

Why are you so obsessed with size?
He is a big punching hw who comes forward and throws bombs, how many of those bombs can Lewis take? Foreman also hit harder than McCall and Rahman, so it is not pushimg the limits of possibiliy to say he could ko Lewis as well

Of course he could , why are you trying to force an argue every time ?
I added remarks to present my doubts about my picks , maybe I forgot to mention Lewis could lose to Foreman , did I ?
But Lewis is still my favorite to beat Foreman . But not a big favorite.

Foreman at that point in time would of been fat and in his 40's i.e far from his prime

True.

Iron chin, big puncher, not very good boxing skills, sound familiar?

No. Mercer was not a big puncher , just an old , fat CW. Foreman was way better , even the shot one , probably because of his size.
Foreman's chin was also somewhat better , maybe due to his size.

The quote I was responding to:

You said he struggled with Holyfield, and now you are saying he didnt struggle with him?

Said he didn't dominate him , smartass.
Go to wiktionary and learn the difference between dominate and struggle.
Wiktionary is a good site , really.

You should score fights round by round

I leave it to the likes of you.
I did it only in Jones-Clay and had it somewhere between a draw and a Jones narrow win.

Leiws fights nothing like prime Foreman, Foreman was a slugger while Lewis was a boxer/puncher
As for your other comparisons:

Lewis could slug as he showed , maybe you should watch his fights.

How do you know he was acting. He was doing quite well, until a Foreman punch landed on his back. He was also clearly exhausted

Again , either you did not watch it , or forgot , Qawi acted like he is going to forfeit and then returned with a punch every time.

He would of been a green contender i.e not prime. And if you havent seen those fights or have a review of those fights then how can you judge his performance in them?

Really , how can you ? either he was green , or shot , no one lost during his "prime" , if he lost , fix his prime to be another era.

Then you would know that like Norton, Witherspoon used the "crab defense", which would of stopped Ali's two main punches, which were the left jab and straight right,........right?

Both are overrated , but to say Witherspoon was better , is an exaggeration .
Of my knowing you from your other posts , you overrate Witherspoon , a fat regular 80s HW way too much. I don't remember any "crab" thing from either fight , maybe because I watched each one only once. And I'd rather do Norton lose than "win" , because this was the thing he was way better at :yep:

[Toney616]

Then you forgot about the Spinks fight more than I did.

Why can you never give a fighters credit for their wins? Whats up with all of these imaginary fouls you insert into fights to try and discredit their wins?
Please tell me at which points in the Spinks fight, Tyson fouls?

The Holmes fight I watched only 2 times and not very recently , but I remember Tyson used elbows in most of his fights during his "prime".

Then your memory is seriously faulty

No. Mercer was not a big puncher , just an old , fat CW. Foreman was way better , even the shot one , probably because of his size.
Foreman's chin was also somewhat better , maybe due to his size.

You obviously missed the point of my post. I said the closest Lewis ever came to fighting a fighter like Foreman, was Mercer and Lewis got a debatable win in that fight. Of course Foreman is a better fighter than Mercer, which is why I would favour Foreman in that matchup.As for chin Mercer has never been stopped, so its up in the air for who had the better chin
Size and chin dont also go hand in hand either, think Wlad, Bruno

I also take it you havent watched the Mercer-Morrison fight? Check out that ko

Said he didn't dominate him , smartass.

You said Lewis struggled with Holyfield more than Bruno and I said that Lewis completely dominated Holyfield in their first fight.

I leave it to the likes of you.

Which is why you shouldnt put down fighter wins, if you are not going to score thier fights.

Lewis could slug as he showed , maybe you should watch his fights.

Foreman tried to wear you down with power shots(hooks), Lewis would fight behind a jab and straight rights. Its not even remotely the same

Again , either you did not watch it , or forgot , Qawi acted like he is going to forfeit and then returned with a punch every time.

How do you know he wasnt serious, but his heart kept him from quitting?

Really , how can you ? either he was green , or shot , no one lost during his "prime" , if he lost , fix his prime to be another era.

How can a fighter be prime, when they have only had around 8 fights?

Both are overrated , but to say Witherspoon was better , is an exaggeration .
Of my knowing you from your other posts , you overrate Witherspoon , a fat regular 80s HW way too much.

Who would of when down in history as a great champion if not for his problems with King

I don't remember any "crab" thing from either fight , maybe because I watched each one only once. And I'd rather do Norton lose than "win" , because this was the thing he was way better at :yep:

You haven't watched the Holmes-Wotherspoon, have you?
Witherspoons prime was spent in court and being shut out of big fights, due to King. Dont you think that is going to effect his performances?

When talking about h2h fights you have to talk about your personal observations of a fighter and fights which can be used a blueprints, you CANNOT use Boxrec, which isnt useful here.

[frankenfrank]

Why can you never give a fighters credit for their wins? Whats up with all of these imaginary fouls you insert into fights to try and discredit their wins?
Please tell me at which points in the Spinks fight, Tyson fouls?

When was it when Cortez said : "Cut it off Mike , cut it off"

Then your memory is seriously faulty

You obviously missed the point of my post. I said the closest Lewis ever came to fighting a fighter like Foreman, was Mercer and Lewis got a debatable win in that fight. Of course Foreman is a better fighter than Mercer, which is why I would favour Foreman in that matchup.As for chin Mercer has never been stopped, so its up in the air for who had the better chin
Size and chin dont also go hand in hand either, think Wlad, Bruno

In average they do . Could Pacquiao stop Wladimir Klitschko or even Floyd Patterson ?

I also take it you havent watched the Mercer-Morrison fight? Check out that ko

True , I didn't. I don't think highly of either one of them , especially not Morisson.

You said Lewis struggled with Holyfield more than Bruno and I said that Lewis completely dominated Holyfield in their first fight.

I watched both of their fights , Lewis was successful with his uppercuts in one of them , but did not completely dominate in neither one.

Which is why you shouldnt put down fighter wins, if you are not going to score thier fights.

Why should I score fights round by round ? and it is even worse when there are fouls. In that case I do the point deduction myself , which is only one reason why I think Hopkins lost more than he did. Not to mention his tactics actually saved him from being stopped , and he should have been at least disqualified for them.

Foreman tried to wear you down with power shots(hooks), Lewis would fight behind a jab and straight rights. Its not even remotely the same

Lewis could also fight a dirty fight from close range , he was not a pure clincher , he had more Hopkins dimensions to him than that.

How do you know he wasnt serious, but his heart kept him from quitting?

Because he did it many times and in the end he did retire.

How can a fighter be prime, when they have only had around 8 fights?

They can have experience from the amateurs , sparring and watching fights but it still depends on those first 8 fights , plus they are still lacking most of the accumulative damage.

Who would of when down in history as a great champion if not for his problems with King

Only yours and a few others opinion. Smith , Tyson , Holyfiled and even Tucker would have prevented it from him. Not to mention he may have just lost to Bruno without his fouling.

You haven't watched the Holmes-Wotherspoon, have you?

True.
I regret every Holmes fight I watched except of Tyson maybe.
They just proved me what boxrec couldn't which is how s.h.i.t he was.

Witherspoons prime was spent in court and being shut out of big fights, due to King. Dont you think that is going to effect his performances?

McCall's prime was spent in rehabilitation institutes and using crack , and didn't he had problems with King too ? As much as people in these forums like to dis him , he achieved far more than Witherspoon.

When talking about h2h fights you have to talk about your personal observations of a fighter and fights which can be used a blueprints, you CANNOT use Boxrec, which isnt useful here.

I won't reply on this one to you anymore . If I will , it will be by mistake.

[Toney616]

When was it when Cortez said : "Cut it off Mike , cut it off"

I dont think so

In average they do . Could Pacquiao stop Wladimir Klitschko or even Floyd Patterson ?

You are using extremes here. A fighter who can punch and weighs above 200 more than likely has the power to ko any other heavyweight.The human brain can only take so much blunt force, before it short circuits. And that varies from fighters to fighter.
Chin isnt just pain tolerance either its also related to intangibles, are you willing to fight through the pain?

True , I didn't. I don't think highly of either one of them , especially not Morisson.

Just watch the highlight up on youtube, its brutal

Why should I score fights round by round?

Because it means that you stand by your opinions, especially if you by post them up so others can see it

Because he did it many times and in the end he did retire.

He was a overweight past prime lhw that had no business fighting that high. He must of been at least 40 lbs above his prime weight and taking punches from a hw ko artist.

They can have experience from the amateurs , sparring and watching fights but it still depends on those first 8 fights , plus they are still lacking most of the accumulative damage.

Sonny Liston learned to box in prison. Also pro boxing and amateur fighting is very different. With only 8 fights you will neither have the experience or the basic grounding in your skillset.i.e not prime

Only yours and a few others opinion. Smith , Tyson , Holyfiled and even Tucker would have prevented it from him.

He expected to get around 2m to fight Bruno in England and ended up with 90K, he dived in the smith fight and would then start his war with King, which would get to the point when he was even forced to start carrying a gun. Because he took Kings death threats and mafia connections seriously

Not to mention he may have just lost to Bruno without his fouling.

Here we go again
He only fouled Bruno when he hit him when he went down, through out that same fight Bruno was hitting Witherspoon with rabbit punches which are far more serious offense. An offense which can lead to blindness or death, nteresting that you dont talk about that.

True.

Then you arent really qualified to talk about Witherspoon then are you?

I regret every Holmes fight I watched except of Tyson maybe.
They just proved me what boxrec couldn't which is how s.h.i.t he was.

He is a ATG HW who could hold his own against any other hw over the last 100 years.

McCall's prime was spent in rehabilitation institutes and using crack , and didn't he had problems with King too ? As much as people in these forums like to dis him , he achieved far more than Witherspoon.

McCall
Best wins:
Lewis
Holmes (past prime)
Accomplishments:
wbc hw champion:1 defense
Witherspoon
Best wins:
Tony Tubbs
Frank Bruno
James Smith
Robbed in the Holmes and Mercer fights
Accomplishments:
Wbc champion:1 defense
Was blacklisted by King and recieved regular death threats. Which isnt the same as McCall who voluntarily decided to throw his career away

I won't reply on this one to you anymore . If I will , it will be by mistake.

You should only use boxrec when you are looking for fights to watch, you cant use them in boxing debates because you will basically be debating "blindly"