Old School Boxing skills: The lost art of baiting head-movement in depth description

[billeau2]

Are you saying, that you don't find many (most!) of his anti-modern opinions a bit bizarre?

Some of the weirdest opinions I have seen here include:

That most new fighters have glass jaws.

That most boxers today have less heart than in the old days.

That most new school fighters fight like amateurs and have no real concept what a knockout artist is.

That modern fighters box like stiff robots.

That today's boxers often pull their punches, as a result of too much pad-work (?).

That Lennox is using amateur style punches.

That Bivol and Canelo don't know how to actually fight compared to better fighters of the past.

That modern fighters gas after 4 and only look good for 2 rounds.

And one of my favourites: That modern boxers have thinner sculls than the oldtimers (LOL).

Bundana,

I wanted to post again on this because I was looking for some source that would explain some of the technical details regarding professional fighting styles and amatuer fighting, and I had no such luck... There is a tendency for content creators to outline the set up differences, the structure of the organizations... and one guy went so far as to say amatuer fighters fought more off the back leg, less aggressively... But none of this has any bearing on what I wanted to point out...

So I will try to do this from my own perspective. One book I love about boxing is titled "Boxing" it was written by the amatuer heavyweight champ of England 1895-1896. Captain W Edgeworth Johnstone. He became a coach and even during this time laments how "amatuer fighting has influenced the way boxing is coached in a bad way." He later goes on to highlight these differences by comparing English to American fighters. When he does this he mentions boxing skills, like footwork, slipping, feinting, etc.

Even back when... there were differences that people noticed. While many things have changed, it does tell us that there are things that make for big differences, things that can be listed...

It is my belief that a lot of fighters use simple strategies characteristic of amatuer fighting. You simply see less skills like feinting, all punches thrown, defensive strategies, etc... In its place you see fighters that jab, step, and occasionally throw the cross. This is self limiting. One observation in this book, which I think holds true today, is the limits to a fighters power hand (rear punch), a conservative jab, jab strategy involves. Certainly great fighters rise above this, but it does seem a lot of fighters rely on this more basic strategy... if that makes sense?

[Bundana]

Bundana,

I wanted to post again on this because I was looking for some source that would explain some of the technical details regarding professional fighting styles and amatuer fighting, and I had no such luck... There is a tendency for content creators to outline the set up differences, the structure of the organizations... and one guy went so far as to say amatuer fighters fought more off the back leg, less aggressively... But none of this has any bearing on what I wanted to point out...

So I will try to do this from my own perspective. One book I love about boxing is titled "Boxing" it was written by the amatuer heavyweight champ of England 1895-1896. Captain W Edgeworth Johnstone. He became a coach and even during this time laments how "amatuer fighting has influenced the way boxing is coached in a bad way." He later goes on to highlight these differences by comparing English to American fighters. When he does this he mentions boxing skills, like footwork, slipping, feinting, etc.

Even back when... there were differences that people noticed. While many things have changed, it does tell us that there are things that make for big differences, things that can be listed...

It is my belief that a lot of fighters use simple strategies characteristic of amatuer fighting. You simply see less skills like feinting, all punches thrown, defensive strategies, etc... In its place you see fighters that jab, step, and occasionally throw the cross. This is self limiting. One observation in this book, which I think holds true today, is the limits to a fighters power hand (rear punch), a conservative jab, jab strategy involves. Certainly great fighters rise above this, but it does seem a lot of fighters rely on this more basic strategy... if that makes sense?

If someone says that a fighter boxes like an amateur - isn't that just another way of saying, that he's not very good? Isn't that what it means? So claiming that Inoue and Usyk fight like amateurs, or that Bivol and Canelo can't fight at all... I'm sorry, but I see this as being unnecessarily belittling!

On a site like this, knowledgeable (in most cases!) boxing enthusiasts gather to discuss/exchange views on the sport of boxing. Most of the time, this is about things that can't be objectively verified (who beats who, for example)... but of course everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

However, when someone claims that he has proof, that oldtimers had better chins and were more courageous, or that today's boxers have thinner sculls - then we're talking about factual things. Should we just accept this - or shouldn't we ask such a poster to somehow actually prove, that this is indeed so?

[billeau2]

If someone says that a fighter boxes like an amateur - isn't that just another way of saying, that he's not very good? Isn't that what it means? So claiming that Inoue and Usyk fight like amateurs, or that Bivol and Canelo can't fight at all... I'm sorry, but I see this as being unnecessarily belittling!

On a site like this, knowledgeable (in most cases!) boxing enthusiasts gather to discuss/exchange views on the sport of boxing. Most of the time, this is about things that can't be objectively verified (who beats who, for example)... but of course everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

However, when someone claims that he has proof, that oldtimers had better chins and were more courageous, or that today's boxers have thinner sculls - then we're talking about factual things. Should we just accept this - or shouldn't we ask such a poster to somehow actually prove, that this is indeed so?

That's one way of using the term. But there is actually a way that fights in amateur competitions are significantly different because of the rules. I actually have a perfect analogy for you!

College versus pro football. Many people will tell you the game is just different. Of course I want to assumes a professional football player is more seasoned but there is a whole culture to college football.

If you look at someone like USYK he is an example of someone who took an amateur background and developed a very sophisticated style. The Cubans did likewise, even Loma really similar in many respects to USYK. It's really not pejorative.

I don't know why you hold on to some of those comments about thin skulls, etc frankly they're just not important to me. People say a lot of things. However I do hope you can see why there is a whole culture and development in amateur boxing and certain groups have developed an incredible professional capacity because of it.

[Bundana]

That's one way of using the term. But there is actually a way that fights in amateur competitions are significantly different because of the rules. I actually have a perfect analogy for you!

College versus pro football. Many people will tell you the game is just different. Of course I want to assumes a professional football player is more seasoned but there is a whole culture to college football.

If you look at someone like USYK he is an example of someone who took an amateur background and developed a very sophisticated style. The Cubans did likewise, even Loma really similar in many respects to USYK. It's really not pejorative.

I don't know why you hold on to some of those comments about thin skulls, etc frankly they're just not important to me. People say a lot of things. However I do hope you can see why there is a whole culture and development in amateur boxing and certain groups have developed an incredible professional capacity because of it.

So when apples talks about some of the best modern boxers fighting like amateurs - you don't think that is meant derogatively? But rather praising these boxers for having developed a very sophisticated style, based on their long amateur experience? Considering how he goes out of his way trying to belittle modern boxers, every chance he gets - I don't really think so!

[QueensburyRules]

That's one way of using the term. But there is actually a way that fights in amateur competitions are significantly different because of the rules. I actually have a perfect analogy for you!

College versus pro football. Many people will tell you the game is just different. Of course I want to assumes a professional football player is more seasoned but there is a whole culture to college football.

If you look at someone like USYK he is an example of someone who took an amateur background and developed a very sophisticated style. The Cubans did likewise, even Loma really similar in many respects to USYK. It's really not pejorative.

I don't know why you hold on to some of those comments about thin skulls, etc frankly they're just not important to me. People say a lot of things. However I do hope you can see why there is a whole culture and development in amateur boxing and certain groups have developed an incredible professional capacity because of it.

- - That's because Usyk and Loma were both trained by their ama coach when they turned pro, Loma's pop.

Usyk has moved on to other training while Loma still loyal to dad, but they're all good friends and likely Loma's pop still has some sway in Usyk's current success.

[billeau2]

So when apples talks about some of the best modern boxers fighting like amateurs - you don't think that is meant derogatively? But rather praising these boxers for having developed a very sophisticated style, based on their long amateur experience? Considering how he goes out of his way trying to belittle modern boxers, every chance he gets - I don't really think so!

No... The only thing I said about "Apple" was his supposed use of such terms is exxagerated. I feel like you guys complain a lot about it, when in fact, he only occasionally goes off the reservation so to speak!

Then I gave my opinion about the underlying ideas he was making a reference to, IF I had an opinion on the statement(s), that happened to be part of the list of statements you are critical of... Because I think there is a difference.

So for example, I do not have an opinion about the skull thickness of previous generations , however, I do have an opinion about the amatuer development of boxing and how it intersects with professional boxing. I simply gave you my take on this issue.

Make sense?

[billeau2]

- - That's because Usyk and Loma were both trained by their ama coach when they turned pro, Loma's pop.

Usyk has moved on to other training while Loma still loyal to dad, but they're all good friends and likely Loma's pop still has some sway in Usyk's current success.

Yes. There is a community being they are of the Ukraine. it often starts that way... I would imagine we would find a similar dynamic in some of the other great Ammy programs like the Cubans.

[QueensburyRules]

Yes. There is a community being they are of the Ukraine. it often starts that way... I would imagine we would find a similar dynamic in some of the other great Ammy programs like the Cubans.

- - Cubans with sucky styles ain't good comparisons to Ukrainians, ie Vit/Wlad/Usyk/Loma tip top shelf boxer/punchers in the pantheon.

[billeau2]

- - Cubans with sucky styles ain't good comparisons to Ukrainians, ie Vit/Wlad/Usyk/Loma tip top shelf boxer/punchers in the pantheon.

Sure they are... Savon, Teofilo Stevenson, etc. Cuba and the Ukraine are both dwarfed by bigger countries with vast resources to throw at the boxing program, yet both countries have produced incredible fighters, and even defined a characteristic style.

Cuba Population 11 Million and some change Mexico 127.5 Million
Ukraine population 38 Million Russia 144 Million and some change

[QueensburyRules]

Sure they are... Savon, Teofilo Stevenson, etc. Cuba and the Ukraine are both dwarfed by bigger countries with vast resources to throw at the boxing program, yet both countries have produced incredible fighters, and even defined a characteristic style.

Cuba Population 11 Million and some change Mexico 127.5 Million
Ukraine population 38 Million Russia 144 Million and some change

- - Ama vs Pro comparison like U vs a Grizzly. Not only is he smarter than U/Kerouk/Ginsberg, but he finds U all very tasty to set him up for winter hibernation...