Question......Who was better, Duran at lightweight or Holyfield at cruiserweight?????

[slicksouthpaw16]

We are talking about great fighters here. I'll give you Ken Buchanan because he was 43-1 when Duran beat him an accomplished some good things in the sport but other than that, i don't see anyone that Duran beat that could be considered to be one of the greats. Hell, if you asked me too, i could name 5 fighters that was inducted into the hall of fame for no particular reason. I need a fighter that was truly great like Qawi and De Leon was at cruiser weight. They are two greatest fighters in that division other than Holyfield.

A ringside report on the cruiser weights that explains Qawi and De Leon's career at cruiser as well as others


The site that i found didn't allow me to provde the link but here you at least see that he was the second greatest cruiser weight.



Click on the article and read the story.

[TheGreatA]

We are talking about great fighters here. I'll give you Ken Buchanan because he was 43-1 when Duran beat him an accomplished some good things in the sport but other than that, i don't see anyone that Duran beat that could be considered to be one of the greats. Hell, if you asked me too, i could name 5 fighters that was inducted into the hall of fame for no particular reason. I need a fighter that was truly great like Qawi and De Leon was at cruiser weight. They are two greatest fighters in that division other than Holyfield.

Ken Buchanan and Esteban DeJesus are both top lightweights. You also have to count in Duran's solid wins over other fighters. He reigned for over 6 years and took on all comers in a tough division.

DeLeon and Qawi might be great cruiserweights but would they have had success in a more talent-filled division? I'm not so sure.

A ringside report on the cruiser weights that explains Qawi and De Leon's career at cruiser as well as others

This article explains exactly what many have been saying, the cruiserweight division was not a very talent-filled division because it was new and there wasn't much money in it.
Holyfield pretty much used it as a stepping stone just like David Haye seems to be doing right now.

All credit to De Leon for being a top CW for many years but he had his losses against some mediocre opposition. I'm not so sure if he would've been successful if the division had more talent in it.

Qawi was a tough, tough fighter considering he was just 5'6 and fought at LHW & CW but he only had one dimension because of his size and Holyfield made it hard for himself by brawling with Qawi.

Manchine, here's proof that Qawi is the second greatest cruiser weight of all time.

That is cool and all but the writer himself acknowledges that Qawi's resume at CW was quite poor.
I rank fighters based on their resume, not their potential/how great they performed in a loss/how exciting they were. Qawi always seemed to come up a bit short when fighting the best opposition, not including his two great victories over Matthew Saad Muhammad.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Ken Buchanan and Esteban DeJesus are both top lightweights. You also have to count in Duran's solid wins over other fighters. He reigned for over 6 years and took on all comers in a tough division.

DeLeon and Qawi might be great cruiserweights but would they have had success in a more talent-filled division? I'm not so sure.

Duran was a monster at lightweight and beat some outstanding opponents but Esteban DeJesus is not great. I gave you ken Buchanan because he had a good record and beat some top opposition at lightweight. After reviewing Duran's resume, there was no fighter (other than Buchanan) that really stood out. He beat some decent fighters but none that was on the level of Qawi and De Leon, who still remain as the second and third greatest cruiser weights of all time.

This article explains exactly what many have been saying, the cruiserweight division was not a very talent-filled division because it was new and there wasn't much money in it.
Holyfield pretty much used it as a stepping stone.

All credit to De Leon for being a top CW for many years but he had his losses against some mediocre opposition. I'm not so sure if he would've been successful if the division had more talent in it.

The cruiser weight division was not a very talented filled division but we are comparing the fighters resumes and what they accomplished in their division so basically, nothing matters others than the fact that Holyfield beat 2 hall of famers with that were the two other greatest in that division, of all time. Duran accomplished some great things at lightweight by beating some good fighters, but none of them will go down as one of the greatest lightweights. Holyfield WAS the greatest cruiser weight of all time and he beat the 2 other greatest. You also have to think about the few fights that he had when he accomplished all of this. He also unified the belts and left the division undefeated.

Qawi was a tough, tough fighter considering he was just 5'6 and fought at LHW & CW but he only had one dimension because of his size and Holyfield made it hard for himself by brawling with Qawi.



That is cool and all but the writer himself acknowledges that Qawi's resume at CW was quite poor.
I rank fighters based on their resume, not their potential/how great they performed in a loss/how exciting they were.

I rank the fighters based on what they have accomplished and their place in history. Qawi IS the second greatest cruiser weight of all time and De Leon IS the third greatest.

[TheGreatA]

Duran was a monster at lightweight and beat some outstanding opponents but Esteban DeJesus is not great. I gave you ken Buchanan because he had a good record and beat some top opposition at lightweight. After reviewing Duran's resume, there was no fighter (other than Buchanan) that really stood out. He beat some decent fighters but none that was on the level of Qawi and De Leon, who still remain as the second and third greatest cruiser weights of all time.

Yeah but you also have to take this into account, the cruiserweight division has been around for like 25 years... The lightweight division has a history of over 100 years.

Qawi and De Leon could be top cruiserweights now but in 100 years they might not be regarded as even top 15 if the CW division really takes off.
IMO Qawi certainly will not be because his resume at CW is very poor even when compared to the resumes of JC Gomez, Vassiliy Jirov who defended their CW titles numerous times unlike Qawi.

The cruiser weight division was not a very talented filled division but we are comparing the fighters resumes and what they accomplished in their division so basically, nothing matters others than the fact that Holyfield beat 2 hall of famers with that were the two other greatest in that division, of all time. Duran accomplished some great things at lightweight by beating some good fighters, but none of them will go down as one of the greatest lightweights. Holyfield WAS the greatest cruiser weight of all time and he beat the 2 other greatest. You also have to think about the few fights that he had when he accomplished all of this. He also unified the belts and left the division undefeated.

Qawi is a hall of famer mostly for his work at LHW and the great fights he had.
Gatti will probably end up in the hall of fame but that doesn't mean I will call him a great win for Mayweather.

De Leon isn't in the hall of fame but he is a top fighter like DeJesus was. They will both probably be in the HOF in the future.

DeJesus had a greater win than both DeLeon and Qawi had in their entire careers over Duran, he also reigned two years as the lightweight champion and ended his career with only losses to Gomez (early in his career), Duran, Antonio Cervantes and Mamby (his last fight).

I've seen many rate Buchanan and DeJesus top 20 lightweights of all time.

Being the greatest fighter in the LW division which Duran arguably is (not saying he is for sure), is much better than being the greatest fighter in the CW division.

Duran defended his titles for over 6 years and had over 60 fights.
Holyfield didn't stay in the CW division for long and had under 20 fights.

Really this is like saying 'Finito' Lopez and Rocky Marciano were the greatest because they dominated their (rather weak) divisions and never lost.

I rank the fighters based on what they have accomplished and their place in history. Qawi IS the second greatest cruiser weight of all time and De Leon IS the third greatest.

Well that is your opinion.

IMO Qawi is not the second greatest because he never had a long title run at CW and never beat great CW's.
Qawi only had one dimension and I see many fighters beating him. He beats a lot of fighters coming his way though.

[BennyST]

Lets Compare Duran's best accomplishments at lightweight to Holyfield's best wins at cruiser weight.

Holyfield..............

1.Only having 11 fights and getting a title
2.Beating Dwight Qawi (second greatest cruiser weight of all time)
3.Beating Carlos De Leon(Third greatest cruiser weight of all time)
4.Unifying all of the titles5.Retiring from the division as the unified champion with only 17 fights and also undefeated.

Proof that Qawi is in the hall of fame.......
(scroll down)

Proof that Carlos ''sugar'' De Leon is in the hall of fame (scroll down)



The man (Evander Holyfield) had only 17 professional fights and accomplished all of these things.

Give me a great fighter that Duran beat at lightweight that was in their prime. Do not give me a no name that got his hands on a paper belt that beat another no name FOR the paper belt (like you have been doing). I want a great fighter that Duran beat who is still being mentioned today or is at least in the international boxing hall of fame.

Evander Holyfield beat the 2 other greatest cruiser weights OF ALL TIME with having only 11 pro fights when he beat Qawi and 17 when he beat De Leon.

Lets look at this as objectively and logically as we possibly can. Holyfield fought six title fights at cruiserweight. They were against Qawi, De Leon, Ocassio, Tillman and Parkey. Qawi and De Leon were his best. You claim they are better than anyone Duran fought at lightweight.

-Qawi had five title fights total at cruiserweight.
-He won two and lost three.
-His wins were against Piet Crous and Leon Spinks.
-Piet Crous, 24-0-1, had only had two title fights which were to Ossie Ocasio, who had only 19 fights with three losses, and Randy Stephens, who only had 25 fights with 8 losses, before he fought Qawi and was knocked out. After that he fought four journeymen, was knocked out by one who was 14-6 and retired.
-Leon Spinks, 17-4-2, had one cruiserweight title shot in which he was knocked out, which of course was against Qawi. He had also been KO'ed three times previously.

-Henry Tillman never won a title in his career. He had one title fight against Holyfield and was knocked out.

-Ricky Parkey had three title fights at cruiserweight (not counting the vacant WBF? cruiser title). He won two and was knocked out in the third in three rounds. He ended up with a record of 22-20! A fifty percent loss rate.

-De Leon was the best Holyfield fought at cruiser and, sadly, one of the best ever at cruiserweight (Qawi is not the second best at cruiserweight. I would put Holyfield, De Leon, Juan Gomez as the top three. Gomez was undefeated as a cruiser and had eight title fights winning all. He also had another five WBC International title fight wins. He finished up 43-1, his only loss a bad first round KO. His last fight was for the WBC International heavyweight title which he won against Oliver McCall).

-De Leon had a total of 16 title fights at cruiser.Five were losses and one was a draw. He had mediocre opposition for most of them to say the least. Unfortunately Cruiserweight has never been full of talent and still isn't. His best wins were against Marvin Camel, 43-15, and who only ever won the vacant title twice losing it both times in the very next fights, Yaqui Lopez, 63-15 who again never won a title but was KO'ed in every one of his 5 or so tries, S.T Gordon, 24-7, who won the title from De Leon with a second round KO had one defense and lost it back to De Leon by UD then retired after being KO'ed in the first round in his next fight, Alonzo Ratliff, 25-9, who won the title but again lost it the very next fight...Oh wait, De Leon lost to Alonzo. Near the end of his career he fought Holyfield and lost. They were his best opposition.

Slick, I usually enjoy your posts and I like the fighters you do, but c'mon, I really don't think you're being objective here. Those guys that you have never heard of and say won paper titles (Don't forget, back then the title was not like it is today, it was not a paper title, if you won the WBC and WBA titles you were the man because thats all there was. Very different from today and I only added the guys that had won those titles and defended it more than four or five times) were really damn good fighters.

Buchanan was genuinely one of the best pound for pound fighters of the time and Scotlands best ever fighter and he beat some amazing fighters that are also genuine Hall of Fame fighters. Those guys I mentioned are among the best ever lightweights, like Ortiz, Laguna, Hernandez and Navarro. You may not have heard of them but that doesn't mean just because you haven't that they were not great and that other people haven't heard of them as well. I am most definitely not throwing out random names. You seem to like the slick fighters right? You would of course know of quite possibly the slickest ever, Nicolino Locche? Laguna drew with Locche twice, who had beaten the aforementioned Hernandez, Ortiz beat Laguna and drew with Locche as well, Buchanan beat both Laguna and Ortiz.

If you can beat Alexis Arguello in his prime I'm pretty sure that you're a really, really damn great fighter. If you ever saw Ernesto Marcel fight you would certainly agree with me. His fight with Arguello was brilliant! After that fight Arguello went on to beat Ruben Olivares for the title!!! That was Marcels last fight. Marcel won 40 fights and only lost four! Duran was the only guy to ever knock him out.

You were even saying that you thought Henry Tillman was better than anyone Duran ever fought. The contenders that Duran beat at lightweight were some very stunning fighters and in a pound for pound sense I truly believe would have beaten anyone that Holyfield beat at cruiser. Have a look at Edwin Viruets fights. He was one of the best fighters I've ever seen who never won a title. Many boxing historians would agree with me too. He beat the great Alfredo Escalera giving him his first loss and was undefeated going in against Duran even though he had a loss on his record, it was a very disgraceful robbery loss which no one thought of as a loss.

Saoul Mamby was again one of the underrated guys. Check out this article on him: Sorry I don't know how to make it just link properly so you'll have to copy it ...

I have always found De Jesus' story a sad one. Check this article out, it's very fine:

Edit: Hey, thats cool. It linked it for me automatically!

[BennyST]

An interesting little article I thought you might enjoy:

neverlast
neverlast

Alexis Arguello-vs-Ismael Laguna

By Jim Amato

The "Explosive Thin Man" Arguello, a champion in three weight classes
versus the highly underrated "other" lightweight champion from Panama,
Ismael Laguna. For all intents and purposes Alexis was at his best boxing at
130 pounds. When he was champion of that division he defeated Bobby Chacon,
Boza Edwards, Rolando Navarette, and Bazooka Limon. All of who won the title
AFTER Alexis moved to 135 pounds. Arguello won the lightweight title from
Jim Watt. His highest profile defense at this weight was his highly
competitive knockout of future champion Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini. Alexis
never lost any of his titles in the ring.

Ismael Laguna was one of the best pure boxers the lightweight division
has seen in the last forty years. Only Pernell Whitaker, Howard Davis, and
Hall of Famer Ken Buchanan can compare. To win his first title Ismael out
boxed another Hall of Famer, Carlos Ortiz. Ortiz would then outmuscle Laguna
in winning two subsequent rematches. Five years later Ismael would regain
the title by beating the talented Mando Ramos. He would then lose twice to
Buchanan ending his long career. In 75 bouts against many of the worlds best
including Vincente Saldivar and Guts Suzuki, Ismael was never stopped. His
final record was 65-9-1 with 37 knockouts.

It is no secret the Alexis always had trouble with mobile boxers. Clever
but light hitting Vilomar Fernandez gave him fits. Laguna would give Alexis
a lot of angles. Arguello was usually a slow starter and Ismael was a very
good counter puncher. Laguna was not a hard hitter but he was a sharp and
accurate puncher. It is highly conceivable that Laguna would jump out to an
early lead. Laguna's jab would get in more often but Arguello's would carry
much more sting. Whenever possible Alexis would try to work the body. This
would probably be the key for an Arguello victory. As the bout progressed
Arguello's body attack would slow Laguna down. Remember this would be a
fifteen round fight. By the later rounds Alexis would begin to land some
telling head shots. Laguna would be hurt but he would smartly evade Arguello's
attempts to finish him. Occasionally Ismael would score with light but
flashy combinations but mostly he would be forced to box defensively. The
decision would be close but Arguello's power and his late surge would carry
him to a unanimous decision. Now I wonder how Alexis would have done against
the "other" champ from Panama, Roberto Duran.

[BennyST]

[COLOR="Red"][I]
Duran was a monster at lightweight and beat some outstanding opponents but Esteban DeJesus is not great.

Esteban De Jesus is considered among the top five greatest Puerto Rican fighters ever. Without Duran in the lightweights at that time he would have been champion for many, many years.

He had a great resume with wins over the great champions Jr WW title holder Alfonzo Frazier, WBC lightweight champion 'Guts' Ishimatsu, Roberto Duran, and also beat Ray Lampkin, Hector Medina, and Vicente Saldivar, who were all undefeated rising prospects as well as other great fighters like Viruet, 'Buzzsaw' Yamabe just among a few.

His only losses came against the great champions Antonio Cervantes, Roberto Duran, Saoul Mamby and a terrible home town decision to Antonio Gomez in one of his early fights. Though Gomez was no slouch having beaten 'Kid Pembele' Cervantes and winning the WBA Featherweight title then losing it to Ernesto Marcel twice after some defenses.

Mate, if you're going to say Qawi was great after winning only two title fights against mediocre fighters and De Leon was great for again fighting and losing to mediocre opposition but then denigrate a fighter like De Jesus after he won the lightweight title and defended it over and against the fighters he did, well...