Question......Who was better, Duran at lightweight or Holyfield at cruiserweight?????

[BennyST]

Who did Duran fight at lightweight? You're comparing who Holyfield fought, which was about three guys, to Durans 70! 30 of which were against hacks to get his skills up but the rest which were against very, very good opposition. Why don't we look at a couple of their best wins...

Ok, so who did Qawi fight and beat at Cruiser? Just about no one. Spinks? Ok. Crous? Ok. Wait, who is Crous? He's no one. He won the title of a nobodythen basically lost it the next to Qawi then retired a couple fights later. Even Qawi was beaten by the 'names' he fought because he fought them all at a **** weight for him.

Buchanan or De Jesus? I'll go with Buchanan for the moment. He defeated Ismael Laguna (HOF) twice, Ruben Navarro, Carlos Hernandez, Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Jim Watt (HOF).

What about Ernesto Marcel, Edwin Viruet, Fernandez, Saoul Mamby, Hector Thompson, Kobayashi!

Seriously, are you really comparing the two...or just a being a joker? They are so far apart from being comparable it's not even feasible to bother trying. Me thinks you don't like Duran much.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Who did Duran fight at lightweight? You're comparing who Holyfield fought, which was about three guys, to Durans 70! 30 of which were against hacks to get his skills up but the rest which were against very, very good opposition. Why don't we look at a couple of their best wins...

You are not understanding anything. Holyfield had only 11 fights when he fought Qawi for the title and was undefeated at that weight. Duran lost to Estaban and he was a good fighter, just not on the level of Qawi.

Evander beat Henry Tillman, who also later became a decent heavyweight contender, Carlos De Leon (one of the greatest cruisers of all time) and Qawi, former light heavyweight and cruiser weight champion.

All of these fighters are better than Duran's opposition at lightweight.

Ok, so who did Qawi fight and beat at Cruiser? Just about no one. Spinks? Ok. Crous? Ok. Wait, who is Crous? He's no one. He won the title of a nobodythen basically lost it the next to Qawi then retired a couple fights later. Even Qawi was beaten by the 'names' he fought because he fought them all at a **** weight for him.

Buchanan or De Jesus? I'll go with Buchanan for the moment. He defeated Ismael Laguna (HOF) twice, Ruben Navarro, Carlos Hernandez, Carlos Ortiz (HOF), Jim Watt (HOF).

lol wow. I didn't know that Buchanan, Navarro, Hernandez, Ortiz, Watt, ect was great? So who did they beat? Crous was unbeaten and fought his way up the cruiser weight rankings while beating top 10 opponents and getting the belt. You are only taking away from Holyfields victory.


What about Ernesto Marcel, Edwin Viruet, Fernandez, Saoul Mamby, Hector Thompson, Kobayashi!

Seriously, are you really comparing the two...or just a being a joker? They are so far apart from being comparable it's not even feasible to bother trying. Me thinks you don't like Duran much.

[/QUOTE]
Honestly, what about them and what have they done in the sport? Because i have been around the sport and have never heard of any of them. You are just throwing random names in there.

[TheGreatA]

What about Ernesto Marcel, Edwin Viruet, Fernandez, Saoul Mamby, Hector Thompson, Kobayashi!

Honestly, what about them and what have they done in the sport? Because i have been around the sport and have never heard of any of them. You are just throwing random names in there.

Robero Duran's opposition at LW:

Hiroshi Kobayashi former WBA&WBC super featherweight champion
Ernesto Marcel became the WBA featherweight champion and DEFEATED Alexis Arguello

Ken Buchanan 43-1 at the time. the WBA lightweight champion who had recently vacanted the WBC world title. One of Britain's all time best fighters who had wins over many great lightweights.

Esteban DeJesus 41-1 at the time of their second fight. Duran's toughest opponent, became the WBC lightweight champion. Victory over Duran already makes him a great but he had top great victories as well and a long WBC lightweight title run.

Hector Thompson 39-2 at the time, he was a top Australian contender. Fought pretty much every top fighter in the 70's from Duran to Antonio Cervantes.
Guts Ishimatsu became the WBC lightweight champion, defeated an aging Ken Buchanan.
Saoul Mamby became the WBC light welterweight champion by defeating an aging DeJesus.

Some of the best names.

There were other top ranked contenders who Duran defeated during his 6 year reign (Firuet, Fernandez, Bizzaro, Ortiz, Lampkin, Takayama...) but it would take too long to list all of their accomplishments.

[BennyST]

You are not understanding anything. Holyfield had only 11 fights when he fought Qawi for the title and was undefeated at that weight. Duran lost to Estaban and he was a good fighter, just not on the level of Qawi.

Evander beat Henry Tillman, who also later became a decent heavyweight contender, Carlos De Leon (one of the greatest cruisers of all time) and Qawi, former light heavyweight and cruiser weight champion.

All of these fighters are better than Duran's opposition at lightweight.






lol wow. I didn't know that Buchanan, Navarro, Hernandez, Ortiz, Watt, ect was great? So who did they beat? Crous was unbeaten and fought his way up the cruiser weight rankings while beating top 10 opponents and getting the belt. You are only taking away from Holyfields victory.

Honestly, what about them and what have they done in the sport? Because i have been around the sport and have never heard of any of them. You are just throwing random names in there.[/QUOTE]



Hehehe...I'm not meaning to be offensive but if you think you've been around the sport and know a lot but haven't heard of any of these guys...well, that just shows you haven't been around the sport that long and you don't know that much.

Crous didn't beat anyone of note ever! He won the title off a complete nobody, lost it to Qawi nearly straight away and then retired. If you are even bothering to use his name as someone good, you're really clutching at straws. Qawi beat Crous and Leon Spinks then lost the title straight away to Holyfield. He meant nothing at cruiser and there are about ten fighters Duran faced at lightweight that were better.

Now, normally I like your point of view and the fighters you like, but, in this you seem very out of sorts and on the wrong track or in some kind of denial. You mentioned Henry Tillman, De Leon and Qawi as all being better than anyone Duran beat at lightweight....right?

Henry Tillman never even won a title! He was such a nobody I'm still trying to figure out why you would mention him as a fighter trying to give someone a reputation with. He never won a single title! I'm sorry, but I just can't see where you're going with this?

What about those other guys and who did they beat huh? Mamby was the WBC lightweight champ and defended it maybe six or seven times. Fernandez and Marcel were the only two guys to beat Alexis Arguello in his prime. Marcel was a two time WBA featherweight champion who had again about six or seven defenses including his win over Arguello in his last fight. He went on to win those titles after being beaten by Duran. Ishimatsu won and defended the WBC lightweight title six times (then lost it to De Jesus) after being KO'ed by Duran. Kobayashi was maybe Japans greatest fighter after Harada. He was the unified super featherweight champ and defended the WBC title 3 times and the WBA title about eight times. I'm not bothering to include the obvious guys like Buchanan and De Jesus.

Did I read that you were laughing at Ortiz, Buchanan, Hernandez etc? You don't even know who they are do you? lol!!!
Ortiz beat about five or six Hall of Fame fighters, had seventy fights, lost seven, unified the lightweight titles, defended them about 18 times including the unified titles about 11 of those! He is generally considered one of the greatest fighters ever. Buchanan stopped him in six rounds and also beat Ismael Laguna twice..Let me guess, you don't know who Laguna is right? He is another Hall of Famer who also unified the lightweight titles and fought and beat about five Hall of Famers. Hernandez was the unified light welter champ...shall I go on?

Ok, so in short, you have Holyfield who had six title fights at cruiser. Three of those were against guys who were not exactly what you would call great fighters and apart from De Leon who was at the end of his career and had had about ten defenses, the rest had a combined total of about six defenses! That includes Qawi who only had two title defenses at cruiser. If you actually look at the guys Holyfield fought at cruiser in title fights which were Ocasio, Parkey, Tillman... Qawi and De Leon, the only guy that did anything and meant anything was De Leon.

Duran had 12 title defenses, lost one non title fight to De Jesus and then revenged it twice by KO each time for the title. He fought about eight past, present and future champs at lightweight who had a combined successful record of around 35 - 40 title defenses and unified the titles.

That was about the longest post I've ever written arguing one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read....

[BennyST]

Robero Duran's opposition at LW:

Hiroshi Kobayashi former WBA&WBC super featherweight champion
Ernesto Marcel became the WBA featherweight champion and DEFEATED Alexis Arguello

Ken Buchanan 43-1 at the time. the WBA lightweight champion who had recently vacanted the WBC world title. One of Britain's all time best fighters who had wins over many great lightweights.

Esteban DeJesus 41-1 at the time of their second fight. Duran's toughest opponent, became the WBC lightweight champion. Victory over Duran already makes him a great but he had top great victories as well and a long WBC lightweight title run.

Hector Thompson 39-2 at the time, he was a top Australian contender. Fought pretty much every top fighter in the 70's from Duran to Antonio Cervantes.
Guts Ishimatsu became the WBC lightweight champion, defeated an aging Ken Buchanan.
Saoul Mamby became the WBC light welterweight champion by defeating an aging DeJesus.

Some of the best names.

There were other top ranked contenders who Duran defeated during his 6 year reign (Firuet, Fernandez, Bizzaro, Ortiz, Lampkin, Takayama...) but it would take too long to list all of their accomplishments.

Now why can't I sum it up like you just did? Nice, short and to the point! I like it. I just can't seem to help but blab about random ****e that rarely actually means anything.

Edit: Just on Hector Thompson, me and my dad used to watch these old tapes of Thompson fighting on TV Ringside that he had from back when he was younger and fighting and he was such a great fighter. Really damn tough and gave Duran one of his hardest fights! I remember especially his fights with Manny Santos. They were just brilliant! His three fights with Carlos Giminez (who was something like 80-3 when they first fought) were fantastic as well. I didn't see the last one though, only the first two. Thompson won all three.

He fought absolutely anyone and everyone though. Really fantastic fighter and they just don't come like him anymore. I've got a tape with an interview of him saying if the ref would have let him go on against Duran he would have knocked him out the very next round!!! Hahaha, great stuff, what a guy.

[TheGreatA]

No, that was a top post and very informative, you certainly proved that you know your boxing (not that it was ever in doubt).

I have been rambling about some useless **** on this site myself.

http://krikya360.com/forums/sh...=166675&page=6



Atleast slicksouthpaw can argue his point without resorting to this kind of stuff.

You believe Marciano was athletically inferior because he was white. There's no point for me to argue with a racist like you.

The Manchine is a self hating whiteboy from Finland, he seems to always bash white fighters....He claims to be a Klitschko fan, but he bashes Wlad and Vitali all the time...The Manchine is a white honky hater that nuthugs black fighters.

[BennyST]

No, that was a top post and very informative, you certainly proved that you know your boxing (not that it was ever in doubt).

I have been rambling about some useless **** on this site myself.

http://krikya360.com/forums/sh...=166675&page=6



Atleast slicksouthpaw can argue his point without resorting to this kind of stuff.

Holy crap! I'm dead serious when I say that some of the stuff I see written on this site actually scares me and makes me worry about the state of humanity today.

I sometimes try to ponder where and from what dark recesses of the human psyche these various creepy, crazy and irrational posts from certain people come from....sadly, I just can't seem to think how these minds work and what possible processes go into making them tick and how these people come up with their insane ideas about racism, logic, common sense, their favourite fighters etc...generally any idea they have actually lol!

....Weird.

[OldSkool]

A good argument could be put forth for either man, being the the best fighter's ever in their respective weight classes. However it is a difficult question considering the vastly different opposition they faced, and the fact that Duran dominated lightweight for many years whereas Holyfield used Cruiserweight as a stepping stone to his ultimate ambitions in the heavyweight division.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Lets Compare Duran's best accomplishments at lightweight to Holyfield's best wins at cruiser weight.

Holyfield..............

1.Only having 11 fights and getting a title
2.Beating Dwight Qawi (second greatest cruiser weight of all time)
3.Beating Carlos De Leon(Third greatest cruiser weight of all time)
4.Unifying all of the titles
5.Retiring from the division as the unified champion with only 17 fights and also undefeated.

Proof that Qawi is in the hall of fame.......
(scroll down)

Proof that Carlos ''sugar'' De Leon is in the hall of fame (scroll down)



The man (Evander Holyfield) had only 17 professional fights and accomplished all of these things.

Give me a great fighter that Duran beat at lightweight that was in their prime. Do not give me a no name that got his hands on a paper belt that beat another no name FOR the paper belt (like you have been doing). I want a great fighter that Duran beat who is still being mentioned today or is at least in the international boxing hall of fame.

Evander Holyfield beat the 2 other greatest cruiser weights OF ALL TIME with having only 11 pro fights when he beat Qawi and 17 when he beat De Leon.

[TheGreatA]

Ken Buchanan was a HOFer who beat many other HOFers.


I'm quite sure Esteban DeJesus will be inducted someday. DeJesus is included in the same list with DeLeon.

DeJesus wasn't only the first guy to beat Roberto Duran. He beat a lot of talented fighters, such as Ray Lampkin and Johnny Gant and Alfonso Frazier. Duran will forever overshadow him, but what's terrible about being second best to maybe the greatest lightweight ever?

DeLeon is another guy many don't take seriously, but he got a lot accomplished in the cruiserweight division. He won a piece of the title four different times and beat about every decent cruiserweight there was throughout the 1980s. It wasn't a very deep division and DeLeon wasn't especially dominant, but he was a very stubborn, skilled fighter who fought at the top of his division for nearly a decade.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other fighters who Duran beat inducted into the HOF as well.

I don't really think Qawi is the 2nd greatest cruiserweight of all time, what did he really accomplish in that division?

Qawi had his best days at LHW, beat Saad twice, lost to Spinks, then picked up the CW belt from Piet Crous in a relatively new division, defended it once against Leon Spinks before losing a SD to Holyfield, UD to Ocasio and by KO to Holyfield.

Defeating De Leon was IMO Holyfield's greatest accomplishment at CW.
I still don't think that it is as good as defeating Ken Buchanan and Duran was only 20 years old in that fight..