A Couple of Jack Johnson questions

[The Old LefHook]

- -Never seen the truth expressed so succinctly!

You haven't? That is because you are a known halfwit. I have been saying it for years. Phallus is an even bigger dummy than you are. Jealous?

[Dr. Z]

Why did Jack Johnson never defend his title against Sam Langford? From the stories I've heard/read Johnson defeated Langford in an earlier bout. It was said that Johnson defeated Langford rather handily. Yet years later, as champion, Johnson seemingly wanted no part of Langford. Some have said that Johnson claimed he could only make money against white fighters was why he never faced a black challenger, but I've come to believe that maybe Johnson barely escaped the earlier Langford bout with a victory. Hence his reluctance to face him as champion. Does anyone have information about this?

Second - was the Johnson/Ketchel bout really an exhibition? From the footage I've seen it looks like anything but. Look kind of like a hard contested bout. Was Johnson claims that this was an exhibition fight and that Ketchel caught him off guard and knocked him down his way of explaining the reason he was put on his butt by a middleweight? Was he just trying to save face?

Johnson beat a 20 year old, listed 156 pound Sam Langford. Langford claims he was actually 140 pounds at the time, and hurt / floored Johnson, which was later reported by the French press.

Once Langford matured into a heavyweight, many offers were there to fight Langford tor the title. Johnson never took any of them.

In fact Langford was scheduled to fight Johnson in 1909 as champion in England. The contract was signed by both parties. Johnson didn't honor it. It was a clear duck.

The Johnson vs. Ketchel fight was for real. Ketchel took a beating. It was Johnson's typical cat and mouse, until Ketchel landed a hard shot near the ear region. Johnson got up dazed, and delivered the KO on cue, but not before falling down. The press reported that Johnson was dazed and Johnson himself admitted he was never hit so hard.

The story of a fix came up after Ketchel's death.

[travestyny]

Johnson beat a 20 year old, listed 156 pound Sam Langford. Langford claims he was actually 140 pounds at the time, and hurt / floored Johnson, which was later reported by the French press.

Once Langford matured into a heavyweight, many offers were there to fight Langford tor the title. Johnson never took any of them.

In fact Langford was scheduled to fight Johnson in 1909 as champion in England. The contract was signed by both parties. Johnson didn't honor it. It was a clear duck.

The Johnson vs. Ketchel fight was for real. Ketchel took a beating. It was Johnson's typical cat and mouse, until Ketchel landed a hard shot near the ear region. Johnson got up dazed, and deliver the KO on cue. The press reported tat Johnson was dazed and Johnson himself admitted he was never hit so hard.

The story of a fix cane up after Ketchel's death.

Come on, man. You're saying that France got this right, when reports coming from US press right after the fight got it wrong?

It was a one sided beating. Johnson never went down, and he put Langford down 3 times and closed his eye. It was said that no man up to that point had ever taken such a beating in the Chelsea ring.

1906-04-27 The Boston Journal (Boston, MA) (page 9)
LANGFORD LOSES IN GAME FIGHT
--------
Sam Langford was beaten badly by Jack Johnson at Chelsea last night, but earned the cheers of his admirers and many more besides by a superb exhibition of grit and courage that makes other local exhibitions of gameness in the ring fade almost into insignificance.

He was there all through the fifteen rounds, and saved a lot of money for his friends who had bet that he would last ten rounds, twelve rounds or stay the limit. But it is a question if he were wire, for the beating he took is enough to seriously impair his strength and health.

Most of the punishment was on the head, and so may not have the injurious effect that a severe drubbing on the body would have. Sam didn't have a chance on earth to win, for he was outweighed about thirty-five pounds, and Johnson was too clever, too fast, too heavy, too strong and too powerful in punching for him.

Sam went down three times. On the first occasion it looked as if he slipped or stumbled to his knees, as the accompanying punch was not heavy. He was knocked down with a powerful left hook in the middle of the sixth round and lay on his face. He was down just nine seconds, according to Timekeeper Murphy, a thoroughly honest man, and the referee, Maffit Flaherty, who says he was on his feet at the call of nine, and according to several watches in the hands of men around the ring.

Down Again.

Later on in the same round he was down again for nine seconds. On the first knockdown it looked as if he couldn't continue. But he arose within the specified ten seconds. The second time he went to the floor from a right hand smash on the jaw. He wasn't in such a bad way and arose all right. Johnson tried his best to give him his quietus, but was exhausted and weak from punching and couldn't land the knockout.

It was a one-sided fight. It was all Johnson all the way. Sam did well on his left stabs and showed at times an inclination to shoot the right over for Jack's jaw. But he was outclassed too much naturally to make it any kind of an even fight.

Also, I think the 1909 bout you are referring to was for a piss poor amount of money and even though there were contracts, that's why Johnson refused. He later agreed to fight Langford, when he was given the sum of money he felt was fair, and the match was pulled by the promoters after Johnson was bagged on the Mann Act. This has been discussed here a number of times.

[Dr. Z]

Come on, man. You're saying that France got this right, when reports coming from US press right after the fight got it wrong?

It was a one sided beating. Johnson never went down, and he put Langford down 3 times and closed his eye. It was said that no man up to that point had ever taken such a beating in the Chelsea ring.


Also, I think the 1909 bout you are referring to was for a piss poor amount of money and even though there were contracts, that's why Johnson refused. He later agreed to fight Langford, when he was given the sum of money he felt was fair, and the match was pulled by the promoters after Johnson was bagged on the Mann Act. This has been discussed here a number of times.

Always excuses when it comes to Johnson fans.

No--I'm not saying France missed the report of the first fight, I'm saying they said Johnson was down when they thought Johnson and Langford might give it a go in France. This was from Langford's manager Joe Woodman. The French also stripped Johnson for not fighting Langford, Jeanette, or McVey.

The 1909 singed contract by Johnson and Langford was for good money. Jonnson simply skipped it and fought a weaker mark. If you sign a contract, you should honor it. So a re-match should have happened, and based on Johnson's shaky 1909, Sam could have won it. As Champion Johnson could have fought Langford in England, France or Australia. It did not have to be in the USA.

The Mann act arrest for Johnson ( who was a part time pimp ) was in 1912, not 1909 or before that time.

I never read a report that says Langford was down 3x.

[travestyny]

Always excuses when it comes to Johnson fans.

No--I'm not saying France missed the report of the first fight, I'm saying they said Johnson was down when they thought Johnson and Langford might give it a go in France. This was from Langford's manager Joe Woodman. The French also stripped Johnson for not fighting Langford, Jeanette, or McVey.

But why repeat something here that is clearly false? Should I say, "So many lies from Johnson haters?" It makes no sense to talk about him being down in the fight when he wasn't down. And you worded it like it was factual.

The 1909 singed contract by Johnson and Langford was for good money. Jonnson simply skipped it and fought a weaker mark. If you sign a contract, you should honor it. So a re-match should have happened, and based on Johnson's shaky 1909, Sam could have won it. As Champion Johnson could have fought Langford in England, France or Australia. It did not have to be in the USA.

The Mann act arrest for Johnson ( who was a part time pimp ) was in 1912, not 1909 or before that time.

I never read a report that says Langford was down 3x.

How much money was the 1909 fight for. You should be well aware that after Johnson became champ, he said his mark should be no less than what Tommy Burns got paid as champion when Johnson fought him, which was about $30,000 if I'm not mistaken.

And right, he had opportunities to fight him in Australia. Which is why I mentioned he accepted a fight with him in...Australia. Again, the fight was pulled by the promoter when he was bagged on the Mann Act.

If I remember correctly, the 1909 fight was for about 3000 pounds, which is far below Johnson's desired purse of 6000 pounds.


Actually, in fact, they didn't even offer 3000 pounds. They offered the winner taking 60% or 70% of the 3000 pounds. Here's Johnson's statement about it.

Edit--Actually, the above was the second time they had asked him to fight for 3000 pounds. Talk about Moran and a broken arm made me realize the date was off. Here he talks about both offers making it clear that 5 years before the offer was still 3000 pounds and why he rejected it.

No way Johnson should have fought Langford of all people for $10,000 when Burns was getting $30,000.

When he was offered $50,000 for Langford and McVey, he took it. As I told you, the offer was pulled after he was busted for the Mann Act.

It's not excuses. It's simply giving the relevant details accurately.


Also, I clearly already gave you a source and link for Langford being down 3 times. It was in my first reply.

[Dr. Z]

travestyny But why repeat something here that is clearly false? Should I say, "So many lies from Johnson haters?" It makes no sense to talk about him being down in the fight when he wasn't down. And you worded it like it was factual.

Johnson has a # of excuses why he didn't fight. Fact is he had his chances, a signed contract for Langford and numbers offers to meet Langford, Jeannette and McVey for $50,000.00 or more

He was also knocked silly in an exhibition match by GunBoat Smith in a 4 round exhibition match as champion. Two men in the ring, look at what happened. Smith never got a fight, despite defeating quite a few of Johnson's opponents.

Middle weight Jock O'Brien at an estimated 160 pounds was given a news draw vs Johnson in 1909 as well Hold on now, wasn't 1909 supposed to be Johnson's prime? Yes, it was.

If that wasn't enough, a trial horse like Ross in fact stung him with the only punch he landed, also in 1909 and based on his record had no business getting a title shot.Look at Ross record leading up the match.

Of course there is also the famous Ketchel fight where he was hurt and floored by a middle weight, but otherwise won easy.

How much money was the 1909 fight for. You should be well aware that after Johnson became champ, he said his mark should be no less than what Tommy Burns got paid as champion when Johnson fought him, which was about $30,000 if I'm not mistaken.

Johnson had a contract signed. He pulled out. He made like 5-6K vs Burns. He did not want to fight Langford, period.

And right, he had opportunities to fight him in Australia. Which is why I mentioned he accepted a fight with him in...Australia. Again, the fight was pulled by the promoter when he was bagged on the Mann Act.

As I explained many offers were in before the Mann Act. He also had offer post the Mann Act to fight Jeannette in Chicago, and to fight Langford in Russia. Guess what, they never happened. A man can simply say I want more money to avoid a fight. A recent example was Lennox Lewis who said he'd fight Klitschko in a re-match for $50,000,000.00. I guess the 18 million dollar offer for him wasn't enough.

In Europe, Jack Johnson did make history in the first all Black Heavyweight title fight. What Happened? He barley avoided the KO, in a fight that one judge felt Battling Jim won, the other two ruled a draw. Rumor has it this one was filmed. What if Langford or Jeanette was in there? No re-match was offered.

[Dr. Z]

PS: I can find many articles that offer Johnson money to fight if that's what you need to see vs Langford, Jeannette and Langford. These fights never happened.

I can not name one lineal champion who avoided this much competition, and yes I can add Smith and possibly McCarty to the list.

[travestyny]

Johnson has a # of excuses why he didn't fight. Fact is he had his chances, a signed contract for Langford and numbers offers to meet Langford, Jeannette and McVey for $50,000.00 or more

He was also knocked silly in an exhibition match by GunBoat Smith in a 4 round exhibition match as champion. Two men in the ring, look at what happened. Smith never got a fight, despite defeating quite a few of Johnson's opponents.

Middle weight Jock O'Brien at an estimated 160 pounds was given a news draw vs Johnson in 1909 as well Hold on now, wasn't 1909 supposed to be Johnson's prime? Yes, it was.

If that wasn't enough, a trial horse like Ross in fact stung him with the only punch he landed, also in 1909 and based on his record had no business getting a title shot.Look at Ross record leading up the match.

Of course there is also the famous Ketchel fight where he was hurt and floored by a middle weight, but otherwise won easy.

I don't understand what any of this has to do with the claim that he was knocked down vs. Langford. I never questioned your opinion of his fights or whom you thought would have won. I've only stated the facts that the fight they had was a one sided beating and Johnson was never down.

I don't see Gunboat Smith on his resume at all, so no idea what you're referring to. You also just tried to tell us that Johnson was down vs. Langford so I think you should post some proof as to what you're talking about or we can't properly consider the things you say. Was this about some kind of sparring??? Ok. He was stung by Ross. Ok. Ketchel floored him when apparently they had an agreement to make the fight go longer and he clocked him early...? At least that's the story I've been seeing. Then Johnson knocked his teeth out. Ok........?

What does any of this, whether true or embellished in some way, have to do with him never being down vs. Langford and agreeing to fight Langford in Australia?

Johnson had a contract signed. He pulled out. He made like 5-6K vs Burns. He did not want to fight Langford, period.

Then why would he agree to fight him in Australia. Makes no sense.

And that's the point. He made 5-6K vs. Burns as the challenger. He said that as Champion, he wants exactly what Burns got for fighting him, which was $30,000, for all of his fights.

As I explained many offers were in before the Mann Act. He also had offer post the Mann Act to fight Jeannette in Chicago, and to fight Langford in Russia. Guess what, they never happened. A man can simply say I want more money to avoid a fight. A recent example was Lennox Lewis who said he'd fight Klitschko in a re-match for $50,000,000.00. I guess the 18 million dollar offer for him wasn't enough.

And as I've already explained, he agreed to fight Langford in Australia. What part of Jack Johnson saying that he isn't fighting for anything less than $30,000 don't you get? He agreed to fight Jeannette for this amount. He also agreed to fight Langford and Mcvey packaged together for $50,000. So if you're trying to prove that he ducked them, I don't see it when it's shown that he was ready to roll when he got his price.

In Europe, Jack Johnson did make history in the first all Black Heavyweight title fight. What Happened? He barley avoided the KO, in a fight that one judge felt Battling Jim won, the other two ruled a draw. Rumor has it this one was filmed. What if Langford or Jeanette was in there? No re-match was offered.

You really don't want this fighter to be judged fairly with all the facts in, do ya? No mention of him breaking his arm in this fight?


That's my point to you. You're talking about an outright lie that he was down vs. Langford, pretending that he never agreed to fight Langford, McVey, Jeannette, etc., bringing up some so called exhibition vs. Gunboat Smith that doesn't exist on either of their resumes, going crazy about him getting shook by a punch or getting close decisions from fighters....to prove what? Your opinion that he wasn't so good?

Ok. You are welcome to your opinion. Only it would be nice if you give all of the ACCURATE DETAILS so people can make an informed opinion without your special twist on it. Apparently Jack Johnson was good enough for you to lie about him being down vs. Langford.

[travestyny]

PS: I can find many articles that offer Johnson money to fight if that's what you need to see vs Langford, Jeannette and Langford. These fights never happened.

I can not name one lineal champion who avoided this much competition, and yes I can add Smith and possibly McCarty to the list.

Find all of the articles you like. I already posted the ones where he accepted. So knock yourself out!

[QueensburyRules]

Come on, man. You're saying that France got this right, when reports coming from US press right after the fight got it wrong?

It was a one sided beating. Johnson never went down, and he put Langford down 3 times and closed his eye. It was said that no man up to that point had ever taken such a beating in the Chelsea ring.



Also, I think the 1909 bout you are referring to was for a piss poor amount of money and even though there were contracts, that's why Johnson refused. He later agreed to fight Langford, when he was given the sum of money he felt was fair, and the match was pulled by the promoters after Johnson was bagged on the Mann Act. This has been discussed here a number of times.

- -No beating, Einstein.

It is widely agreed the two friends were to spar exhibition style. Ketchel POed over JJ muscling him around and let lose a KD and the rest history.

What, the PO lost U new Jack Dempsey dartboard in the mail?