A Couple of Jack Johnson questions

[travestyny]

Agreed.

Jeannete had a listed 0-3 record for his first fight with Johnson and usually a .500 like record. He was green with no amateur experience. That's who Johnson beat and drew with, along with one DQ loss when he went low.

McVey was just a teenager for his fight with Johnson. At age 18 and 19, how good could he have been?

Yet when these men and Langford who was 20 years old, and probably under 150 pounds for his sole fight for Johnson matured and wanted a title match, Johnson skirted them and money offers. Some of his fan go crazy, not even aware of the above.

Anyone disagree with the above? Travestny, and we all square here? Look it up. I have just as many sources, its always an execuse why he didn't test himself as champion. While Dempsey get blasted for not fighting Wills and to a lesser extend Greb, Johnson drew the color line more often and vs. more people.

I'm okay with really informed fanboys. If we don't agree, I could learn something along the way. However that's a rare breed. Once you know enough it's up to you to reported it as you learned, not deny the obvious.

I prefer to let the facts, films, history and ring results rule.

Why are you not quoting me if you are mentioning me, and why are you ignoring everything I posted here and then asking if we are all square here.


Once again, your opinion about how good he was doesn't matter to me. You are free to your opinion. What I'm asking you about are the things that you've presented here that are either not true or embellished.

1. He did not go down to Langford like you claim.
2. He made attempts to fight Jeannette, McVey, and Langford. Fights that were pulled not by his doing.

That's the extent of what I've shared with proof, and you won't even address them.


Which tells me that you're more of a hater than I thought. I had more respect for you than that.


Tell me why you won't address any of the points I've posted here that have clear evidence, then we can discuss who is afraid of facts and who is a fanboy...or a hater. You clearly are just ducking the facts.

[Marchegiano]

Agreed.

Jeannete had a listed 0-3 record for his first fight with Johnson and usually a .500 like record. He was green with no amateur experience. That's who Johnson beat and drew with, along with one DQ loss when he went low.

McVey was just a teenager for his fight with Johnson. At age 18 and 19, how good could he have been?

Yet when these men and Langford who was 20 years old, and probably under 150 pounds for his sole fight for Johnson matured and wanted a title match, Johnson skirted them and money offers. Some of his fan go crazy, not even aware of the above.

Anyone disagree with the above? Travestny, and we all square here? Look it up. I have just as many sources, its always an execuse why he didn't test himself as champion. While Dempsey get blasted for not fighting Wills and to a lesser extend Greb, Johnson drew the color line more often and vs. more people.

I'm okay with really informed fanboys. If we don't agree, I could learn something along the way. However that's a rare breed. Once you know enough it's up to you to reported it as you learned, not deny the obvious.

I prefer to let the facts, films, history and ring results rule.

To pretend like their legacies are similar or it's mysterious why folks would give Dempsey more grief over ducking than Johnson is really, really, intellectually disingenuous.

Jack Johnson is remembered for taking on all challengers? That's what his legacy is? Him a mankiller?

Those two lines are enough right? We both know what my point is already.

Jack Johnson upholding the colorline is a bit of trivia info everyone knows.

Jack Dempsey's legacy is not overcoming odds or fighting against an unfair system that against him for reasons he can not change. His legacy is very much taking one the best of his era and absolutely obliterating them.

Johnson doesn't take much hit because if you were looking up to Johnson as some kind of takes on all challengers type you're an extremely rare sort.

Conversely, seeing Dempsey as a takes on all challengers type is the norm and obviously finding out he did not is far, far, far more disappointing than finding out Johnson was selfish and looked out for his own best interest.

Duh.

[QueensburyRules]

Why are you not quoting me if you are mentioning me, and why are you ignoring everything I posted here and then asking if we are all square here.


Once again, your opinion about how good he was doesn't matter to me. You are free to your opinion. What I'm asking you about are the things that you've presented here that are either not true or embellished.

1. He did not go down to Langford like you claim.
2. He made attempts to fight Jeannette, McVey, and Langford. Fights that were pulled not by his doing.

That's the extent of what I've shared with proof, and you won't even address them.


Which tells me that you're more of a hater than I thought. I had more respect for you than that.


Tell me why you won't address any of the points I've posted here that have clear evidence, then we can discuss who is afraid of facts and who is a fanboy...or a hater. You clearly are just ducking the facts.

- -JJ the milk of his mother's kindness immaculate with stinkless bowels is it?

[HOUDINI563]

Neither Dempsey nor Johnson ducked. Johnson signed to fight Langford 3 times. Twice the bout fell through due to promoters being unable to come up with $. The other occasion Johnson was convicted of Mann act violations, left the country, and the bout was sc****d. Johnson’s only stipulation was that he received his going rate of $30,000 for a title bout. As per Rickard a bout between two black fighters “would not draw flies”. Hence the difficulty making the bout occur.

No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries on everyone’s mind especially the government of that time. This is why no black man had a shot at the title until Louis in 1937 over a decade later.

[Dr. Z]

Why are you not quoting me if you are mentioning me, and why are you ignoring everything I posted here and then asking if we are all square here.


Once again, your opinion about how good he was doesn't matter to me. You are free to your opinion. What I'm asking you about are the things that you've presented here that are either not true or embellished.

1. He did not go down to Langford like you claim.
2. He made attempts to fight Jeannette, McVey, and Langford. Fights that were pulled not by his doing.

That's the extent of what I've shared with proof, and you won't even address them.

Which tells me that you're more of a hater than I thought. I had more respect for you than that.


Tell me why you won't address any of the points I've posted here that have clear evidence, then we can discuss who is afraid of facts and who is a fanboy...or a hater. You clearly are just ducking the facts.

Do I have to quote you to talk about a subject? If so, my bad, I am sort of new here. Here are the facts: Not my opinions mind you. You are welcome to discuss any of the above with me.

1 ) Langford's manager Joe Woodman tired everything to make the match. Big time offers there form known promoters. The fight was never made, and it was not Langford fault. Using a headline from one offer and pretending that absolved the issue is false. Do you want me to post the offers here? You'd run out of reasons, which I consider excuses as to why the fight never happened.

2 ) Johnson pulls out of a signed contract to fight Langford in 1909. That happened. You lose. If you keep puling out and saying it's not enough, some call it ducking. If you sign a contract, you should honor it. Don't give me it wasn't enough money as an excuse, he signed it. Do you have the contract? Produce the source please. I'd like to see it.

3 ) Johnson best contenders were Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Smith and McCarthy. I could add in Jeff Clark too as he was better than some Johnson fought. None of the above got a title shot. Why? As a lineal tendered champion, Johnson's competition fought is the worst of all heavyweight champion ( That had 4 title defenses or more ). Are you going to disagree here?

4 ) While Johnson did beat Langford, Jeannette and McVey early, the true value of those wins did not mean much as he was a mature heavyweight, and they were not.

Langford, by a fine book was 20 years old, a listed at 156 pounds. Sam says he was in the 140's.

Jeannette had not won a fight when he first fought Johnson, and had no amateur experience. He was a .500 type of fighter in those days and one who by the end of the series with Johnson was producing draws. I gave you Jeanette's quote. Johnson drew the color line.

Mcvey was limited and a teenager.

Not very impressive, a title fight with mature versions of the three would have been significant. But Johnson denied that clearly.


5. You don't understand the time lime of the Mann Act, and the fact that Johnson avoided it by fighting in different countries. It didn't prevent Johnson from having fights, and Johnson was guilty of it in 1913, plenty of time to fight the best out there.

Those are the facts.

Regards,

Dr. Z

[Dr. Z]

Neither Dempsey nor Johnson ducked. Johnson signed to fight Langford 3 times. Twice the bout fell through due to promoters being unable to come up with $. The other occasion Johnson was convicted of Mann act violations, left the country, and the bout was sc****d. Johnson’s only stipulation was that he received his going rate of $30,000 for a title bout. As per Rickard a bout between two black fighters “would not draw flies”. Hence the difficulty making the bout occur.

No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries on everyone’s mind especially the government of that time. This is why no black man had a shot at the title until Louis in 1937 over a decade later.

Many mistakes here. You fail to mention Johnson signed a contact to fight Langford in 1909.

The 1913 match between Jim Battling Johnson and Jack Johnson featured two African Americans, essentially destroying your argument that " No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries "

Well it did, and Jack Johnson was nearly KO'd

Many people wanted to see Johnson vs the best. It did not happen.

Johnson purse demands are just that. He fought Fireman Flynn, a dreadful filmed match for less than 30K. Are you aware of that?

And he fought Moran for far less than 30k.

As champion with Johnson and Dempsey could have fought anyone they wanted to. With Dempsey, okay if he can't fight Wills in the State of New York, why not move the fight to New Jersey, Chicago, LA, San Fran or Vegas?

Don't tell me there wasn't money in that fight. It would have been huge.

[QueensburyRules]

Neither Dempsey nor Johnson ducked. Johnson signed to fight Langford 3 times. Twice the bout fell through due to promoters being unable to come up with $. The other occasion Johnson was convicted of Mann act violations, left the country, and the bout was sc****d. Johnson’s only stipulation was that he received his going rate of $30,000 for a title bout. As per Rickard a bout between two black fighters “would not draw flies”. Hence the difficulty making the bout occur.

No black man was going to fight for the heavyweight championship with the spectra of the race riots after Johnson beat Jeffries on everyone’s mind especially the government of that time. This is why no black man had a shot at the title until Louis in 1937 over a decade later.

- -U still ignoring the French stripped JJ of his title after the Battling Johnson in his new digs of Paris.

U know, that balmy isle where McVey, Sam, and Joe fought each other while awaiting a JJ title shot.

Sam and Joe fought fer that title that Sam put on a dominant masterclass to win.

Was U always this unstudied or just fergitfull?

[travestyny]

Do I have to quote you to talk about a subject? If so, my bad, I am sort of new here. Here are the facts: Not my opinions mind you. You are welcome to discuss any of the above with me.

1 ) Langford's manager Joe Woodman tired everything to make the match. Big time offers there form known promoters. The fight was never made, and it was not Langford fault. Using a headline from one offer and pretending that absolved the issue is false. Do you want me to post the offers here? You'd run out of reasons, which I consider excuses as to why the fight never happened.

Sure. Post the offers.
Showing that he accepted an offer proves it's not true that he was avoiding Langford. The fight was not pulled because of Jack Johnson's doing. I've already shown that.

2 ) Johnson pulls out of a signed contract to fight Langford in 1909. That happened. You lose. If you keep puling out and saying it's not enough, some call it ducking. If you sign a contract, you should honor it. Don't give me it wasn't enough money as an excuse, he signed it. Do you have the contract? Produce the source please. I'd like to see it.

How do I lose? What was the game? Does that mean you lost about Johnson never being down vs. Langford, or does it mean that you lose that Johnson never tried to fight any of these guys. Please do let me know if you want to start taking tally so we can get to who is "winning" and who is "losing."

How much was the fight for? We've gone over this already. It was for $10,000 or less being that everything points to the pot having to be shared with the winner receiving more of the money. Jack Johnson made it well known that he would accept a purse of about $30,000 for all of his fights: win, lose, or draw.

So it's a matter of opinion. I've gone on record saying you can call it a duck if you like. But to call it a duck without giving the full details is shady. It would never be smart sense to fight Sam Langford for a percentage of $10,000 based on if you win. And it has to be noted when he was to receive around $30,000, he was game.

Produce the source for what contract? You are the one who said he signed it so you produce it. I already produced the source about him accepting the McVey and Langford fights, and also produced a source about why it was revoked.

3 ) Johnson best contenders were Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Smith and McCarthy. I could add in Jeff Clark too as he was better than some Johnson fought. None of the above got a title shot. Why? As a lineal tendered champion, Johnson's competition fought is the worst of all heavyweight champion ( That had 4 title defenses or more ). Are you going to disagree here?

We know why they didn't get title shots. Did they guarantee the $30,000 that Jack Johnson was looking for? Or, in the case of Joe Jeannette, was it pulled by the NY Commission?

As I already said, he signed on to fight Langford, Jeannette, and McVey. Why are you denying it when I showed the proof. They didn't get title fights, but the fights weren't pulled by JJ.

And no, I don't agree that Johnson's comp was the worst for all heavy champions. Some didn't even hold onto the title as long as he did. Not to mention what he had to go through with where he was allowed to fight and whom he was allowed to fight. And once again, you are entitled to your opinion about how good he was. I'm not here to worry about your opinion. I'm here because you are straight up telling lies or not giving the full story, and you know you're not because you keep avoiding my questions.

4 ) While Johnson did beat Langford, Jeannette and McVey early, the true value of those wins did not mean much as he was a mature heavyweight, and they were not.

Langford, by a fine book was 20 years old, a listed at 156 pounds. Sam says he was in the 140's.

The Sam Langford that was 35-4-17, and lost 1 of his next 36 fights, who developed a reputation as a giant killer was completely dominated by Johnson. Langford does much better against any other similar sized opponent I bet. Johnson gave him A BEATING.

Mind you. Langford lost to Jeannette in Dec. of 1905, beat Jeannette in April of 1906, then the next fight was his loss to Johnson. Seems he was already hitting his stride to me. He lost something like 3 of his next 60 bouts after the Johnson loss.

Jeannette had not won a fight when he first fought Johnson, and had no amateur experience. He was a .500 type of fighter in those days and one who by the end of the series with Johnson was producing draws. I gave you Jeanette's quote. Johnson drew the color line.

You're lying. I've already proven that Jack Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette, so how did Johnson draw the color line on him. How many times are you going to duck this?

After the fist JJohnson match, Joe Jeannette was 6-1-1 when they met again and Jeannette won via disqualification. Then he lost the rematch, beat 2 more guys (including Sam Langford), and then lost to Johnson again. Twice in a row. Then lost to Sam Langford. Lost to Jack Johnson again.

In fact, everyone knows Jeannette began his career slow. He lost his first 4...the last of those 4 being to Johnson. After the last time Johnson beat him, Jeannette lost about 6 of his next 50 fights. 4 of them were losses to Langford, and one was a loss to McVey. Looks like he had hit his stride.

Mcvey was limited and a teenager.

Not very impressive, a title fight with mature versions of the three would have been significant. But Johnson denied that clearly.

There's only a few people who ever beat McVey period. Jack Johnson beat him three times. Take Jack Johnson out of the equation and McVey lost like once in his first 18 fights.

5. You don't understand the time lime of the Mann Act, and the fact that Johnson avoided it by fighting in different countries. It didn't prevent Johnson from having fights, and Johnson was guilty of it in 1913, plenty of time to fight the best out there.

Those are the facts.

Regards,

Dr. Z

All you have to do is post up the offers then. I've already posted up the offers that show that he accepted these fights.

Let's see what you come back with. Regards.

[travestyny]

Johnson purse demands are just that. He fought Fireman Flynn, a dreadful filmed match for less than 30K. Are you aware of that?

And he fought Moran for far less than 30k.

You sure about that?

Moran fight: $35,000 to Johnson, win lose or draw.

Flynn fight: $31,100 to Johnson. ($30,000 Guarantee and $1,100 training expenses.)

[QueensburyRules]

You sure about that?

Moran fight: $35,000 to Johnson, win lose or draw.

Flynn fight: $31,100 to Johnson. ($30,000 Guarantee and $1,100 training expenses.)

- -U @U cut & pasty finest.

JJ $30k figure completely arbitrary post Burns win eliminates most every contender, don't it?

Only the huge draw of JJJeffries made him his $ and reputation that he steadily defiled during his reign.

Had he an ounce of honor(not!) he'd have challenged Sam as the winner of his defrocked belt.