BEST POUND 4 POUND CHAMP EVER? and top 10

[LondonRingRules]

It's well known that in his prime Ali did everything "wrong" from a technichal aspect. He got away with it because of his incredible speed and reflexes. In a way it was actually a strength because you couldn't predict what he would do. A good comparison from today is Roy Jones. All these things were said about him as well. The difference between the two is that once his speed and reflexes diminished Ali adapted and found a new way to fight; Jones did not and kept trying to fight the same way he did in his prime. The results were Jones was starched in back to back fights.
Poet

** Da Poet gets starched back to back to back back to back to back back to back to back back to back to back back to back to back back to back to back and on ad infinitum but da Poet don't know it.

Jones was 35 after a long career when he was starched by two bigger, stronger fighters on top of their games.

Ali was fairtheewell whooped at age 29 by a prime peer, and had his jaw busted up and whooped fairtheewell by another prime peer at age 31. Add on all the controversial fights Ali had and you positively cannot even begin to compare the level of excellence Roy was achieving before meeting his downfall.

Roy never lost to a Leon Spinks. That's as disgraceful as your Poetry.

Ali is a great fighter who fought more HOFers than did Roy, but he in no way was as consistantly excellent and dominant as was Roy who also has some strong comp. Now look at Roy at age 38 and I'd pick him to KO a 38 yr old Ali in a heartbeat.

That's a shame because I and others held out for Ali to retire long before he did rather than exploit his fame and ruin his health.

Don't compare apples to oysters and Ali to Roy. Ain't no rhyme or rythym or reason to it, don't ya know it, Poet?

[Brassangel]

Ali's chin was better than Louis, but his skill and technique was less than half that of the Brown Bomber. Furthermore, Louis never at any point in his career wanted to just quit in the corner, which Ali was guilty of on a few occassions; this gives Louis a bigger heart to overcome the chin factor. Having trouble with Walcott is nothing to be ashamed of, especially compared to having trouble with Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, and George Chuvalo.

Chin is not more important than skill, heart, technique, defensive skill, dominance, and reign as champion. The latter all lean towards Louis.

[hhascup]

Ali's chin was better than Louis, but his skill and technique was less than half that of the Brown Bomber. Furthermore, Louis never at any point in his career wanted to just quit in the corner, which Ali was guilty of on a few occassions; this gives Louis a bigger heart to overcome the chin factor. Having trouble with Walcott is nothing to be ashamed of, especially compared to having trouble with Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, and George Chuvalo.

Chin is not more important than skill, heart, technique, defensive skill, dominance, and reign as champion. The latter all lean towards Louis.

Like I stated before, Ali was knocked down by Cooper BUT he didn't have that much problems with him besides that. He won 7 out of 10 rouns against Jones and beat Chuvalo twice in onesided bouts.

I have just about every film that Louis fought in and I can't see him beating Ali. Ali had the Great heart, if he didn't he would have given up several times. Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Norton and a lot of others.

Every boxing expert that I know will tell you that Ali had a Great heart, yes even Greater then Louis. After he lost some of the skills, it was his Heart and Chin that got him by.

Did you see the 1st Schmeling bout? Louis didn't try to get up.

Ali was hardly ever hit when he was in his prime. He use to play with his opponents. He even lost 3-1/2 prime years and then came back and won the Title again.

As far as Walcott goes, we are putting up a Monument in his honor in Camden on October 6th. We went their today and they were just putting it in. If you look at Walcott's record a year before he fought Louis, he lost to Maxim then beat him by a split decision. He lost to Elmer Ray by a split decision, then beat him in another close match. I think both of them were very good, BUT I wouldn't put them among the all-time great heavyweights would you.

I met Jersey Joe many years ago and he told me that no one was as good as Ali. Actually I think he called him Clay at the time.

Just compare the boxers that fought Louis to the boxers that fought Ali, when they fought them. Who do you say fought the better?

By the way, I rate Louis #2 on my all-time Heavyweight list.

[LondonRingRules]

Did you see the 1st Schmeling bout? Louis didn't try to get up.

** No need to be completely flattened.

Louis was caught early by Schmeling, and like Leonard against Duran, he was in the ozone for the rest of the fight, the only difference being that Duran tired of so easily pounding on Ray and started to coast, but Schmeling finished off Louis, completely brutalizing him.

Don't you even dare to compare the young, green, scared and goofy Clay to a young destroyer Louis who had flattened a smorgasbord of fringe contenders by age 22 plus flattened mankillers and recent world titlests Carnera and Baer .

You wont see any 50 yr old lightheavies and controversial results over smallish heavy pretenders like young Clay compiled on Louis' record.

Louis avenged his Schmeling defeat in spades, something that Ali could never top, and we know who has the better record and most KOs and least controversial fights.

Now, go stand in the corner for an hour and reflect on anything besides Ali.

[hhascup]

** No need to be completely flattened.

Louis was caught early by Schmeling, and like Leonard against Duran, he was in the ozone for the rest of the fight, the only difference being that Duran tired of so easily pounding on Ray and started to coast, but Schmeling finished off Louis, completely brutalizing him.

Don't you even dare to compare the young, green, scared and goofy Clay to a young destroyer Louis who had flattened a smorgasbord of fringe contenders by age 22 plus flattened mankillers and recent world titlests Carnera and Baer .

You wont see any 50 yr old lightheavies and controversial results over smallish heavy pretenders like young Clay compiled on Louis' record.

Louis avenged his Schmeling defeat in spades, something that Ali could never top, and we know who has the better record and most KOs and least controversial fights.

Now, go stand in the corner for an hour and reflect on anything besides Ali.

Don't get me wrong, Joe Louis was one of the Greatest, BUT I just go by the facts and here they are:

Ali fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 80.3279%

Louis fought 43 different Opponents 54 times in 71 (or 72) bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 76.056%

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 32.653%

Ali fought 38 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 33 of them 54.098%

Louis fought 34 out of 71 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat 31 of them 43.662%

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them 22.44898%

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

Louis fought boxers that had an average pro record of 38-10-2.5 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.

Just compare the list of Opponents that each fought, you can't tell me that Ali didn't box the better opponents.

Ali beat Foreman, Frazier 2 out of 3 times, Liston twice, Norton 2 out of 3 times, Patterson twice, Quarry twice, Bonavena, Ellis, Folley, Terrell, Chuvalo twice, Lyle & Shavers. I can go on, BUT I think you know what I mean.

Louis beat Greats like Baer, Schmeling, Walcott twice, Conn twice, Braddock, Carnera & Sharkey.

Compare them at the time they fought Ali or Louis, not just their overall record, and you will see what I am talking about.

Both of these Great boxers are among the best ever, I rate them 1-2. When I was a kid, most experts would say that it was Dempsey who was the Greatest, as time went on the experts would say it was Louis, now for many years, they say it's Ali. No one knows for sure and everyone has their opinions.

These are the facts and I am not going to tell you to go in a corner, BUT if you would take the time to look at them, you will see for yourself.

[Panamaniac]

Don't get me wrong, Joe Louis was one of the Greatest, BUT I just go by the facts and here they are:

Ali fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 80.3279%

Louis fought 43 different Opponents 54 times in 71 (or 72) bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 76.056%

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 32.653%

Ali fought 38 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 33 of them 54.098%

Louis fought 34 out of 71 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat 31 of them 43.662%

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them 22.44898%

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

Louis fought boxers that had an average pro record of 38-10-2.5 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.

Just compare the list of Opponents that each fought, you can't tell me that Ali didn't box the better opponents.

Ali beat Foreman, Frazier 2 out of 3 times, Liston twice, Norton 2 out of 3 times, Patterson twice, Quarry twice, Bonavena, Ellis, Folley, Terrell, Chuvalo twice, Lyle & Shavers. I can go on, BUT I think you know what I mean.

Louis beat Greats like Baer, Schmeling, Walcott twice, Conn twice, Braddock, Carnera & Sharkey.

Compare them at the time they fought Ali or Louis, not just their overall record, and you will see what I am talking about.

Both of these Great boxers are among the best ever, I rate them 1-2. When I was a kid, most experts would say that it was Dempsey who was the Greatest, as time went on the experts would say it was Louis, now for many years, they say it's Ali. No one knows for sure and everyone has their opinions.

These are the facts and I am not going to tell you to go in a corner, BUT if you would take the time to look at them, you will see for yourself.

Let me preface this response by stating that Muhammad Ali is my 2nd. favorite fighter of all time. Before Roberto Durán burst unto the boxing scene, Ali was #1. Despite that, my objectivity remains intact.

Your analysis is flawless. You really did your homework. But at the end of the the day, it is still your opinion, based on your standard of judgement. It (the analysis) doesn't prove that Ali was superior to Louis. My standard doesn't prove that Louis was better either, but my criteria is just as valid as yours, which is Power numbers.

I put a high premium on Power and use it to rate one fighter of otherwise equal merit over another. Louis had a KO percentage of 79.41% to Ali's 66.07%. In addition, Louis recorded 25 succesful defenses of his title, 21 by KO. I'm not big on micro-analysing quality of opponents. In my book, Power rules!

[hhascup]

Let me preface this response by stating that Muhammad Ali is my 2nd. favorite fighter of all time. Before Roberto Durán burst unto the boxing scene, Ali was #1. Despite that, my objectivity remains intact.

Your analysis is flawless. You really did your homework. But at the end of the the day, it is still your opinion, based on your stantard of judgement. It (the analysis) doesn't prove that Ali was superior to Louis. My standard doesn't prove that Louis was better either, but my criteria is just as valid as yours, which is Power numbers.

I put a high premium on Power and use it to rate one fighter of otherwise equal merit over another. Louis had a KO percentage of 79.41% to Ali's 66.07%. In addition, Louis recorded 25 succesful defenses of his title, 21 by KO. I'm not big on micro-analysing quality of opponents. In my book, Power rules!

I agree that everyone has their opinion, BUT if you go by your standards, Rocky would be the best followed by Foreman and then Klitschko. I take every thing into consideration, BUT like you stated, everyone goes by a diffferent Criteria and we all have to respect that too.

[Lubutheimmortal]

There very few Greats that would admit that they would be beaten by anyone.

The main reason I rate Ali over Louis is the CHIN. Ali had one of the best and Louis's was just average. Also, Louis had all kinds of trouble with boxers such as Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott. Walcott knocked him down several times and light hitting Conn had him hurt and almost knocked him down as well.

Most of the films you see on Louis is the highlights of his best bouts, try looking at the entire fight. I am not saying that Louis wasn't Great, because he was, BUT I am saying that nobody was unbeatable, and that includes Louis and Ali.

Walcott can Conn are more "complete" fighters then Ali. Ali was better and I most certianly rank Ali ahead of each. Also wasnt Louis over the hill when he fought Walcott? Getting into a who would win against Louis or Ali really biols down to opinion. Cause a prime/young Ali didnt face a great technician like Louis. Louis had the tools to give Ali trouble and VISE VERSA. However I do believe that in three fights Louis wins 2 -3 . He would notice his faults in the first fight (which I think he loses,....and most likely bad). Ali was a ring genious, but Louis was more so. The way I see things..


1. Ali - Tko late rounds
2. Louis - Tko mid/late (stoppage)
3. Louis - SD/UD (controversial)

[LondonRingRules]

I just go by the facts and here they are:

** Not exactly.

1st you change the topic. You claimed Louis laid down against Schmeling, completely ignoring he went down and got up frequently all through the bout and took a terrible pounding in between. Louis didn't know where he was by the time of the last KD.

2nd, you select the facts that suit you. The fact is Ali was a magnet for controversial fights.

You claim he won 2 of 3 against Norton, but many, probably most think Norton handily won the 2nd fight as well which would have knocked Ali further away from the title. The 3rd was the most competitive, but Ali never showed he could win barely more than a handful of rounds against Norton and chose Leon instead of his mandatory Norton in a 4th match.

Then the Young fight, complete and utter disgrace, even worse than Leon which was just over the horizon, waiting patiently like a buzzard. Foreman at least made a great attempt to fight Young.

Throw out the Liston fights, the most nonsensical set of fights in history. Was he was or was he ain't? Regardless, Liston was the most heavily mobbed fighter in history, and someone made sure he can no longer testify. Then you have the half dozen or so lesser fights the people in the day complained about.

Joe had two controversial fights in his life, gave quick rematches, then quickly dispatched the controversy. No embarrassing little Leons in Joe's record. I'll grant that Frazier and Foreman are a notch above Joe's best comp, but Joe's comp was otherwise more credible and stronger and Joe finished with stronger results with fewer bumps. End of story.

[hhascup]

Walcott can Conn are more "complete" fighters then Ali. Ali was better and I most certianly rank Ali ahead of each. Also wasnt Louis over the hill when he fought Walcott? Getting into a who would win against Louis or Ali really biols down to opinion. Cause a prime/young Ali didnt face a great technician like Louis. Louis had the tools to give Ali trouble and VISE VERSA. However I do believe that in three fights Louis wins 2 -3 . He would notice his faults in the first fight (which I think he loses,....and most likely bad). Ali was a ring genious, but Louis was more so. The way I see things..


1. Ali - Tko late rounds
2. Louis - Tko mid/late (stoppage)
3. Louis - SD/UD (controversial)

Actually Walcott was a little older then Louis and he went through a lot of tough fights before ever getting a shot at the title.

You say that Ali never fought anyone like Louis, well it goes both ways, Louis ever fought anyone like Ali either.

Like you said, it's only someones opinion and I just think that if Conn could out box Louis for 12 rounds, Ali would have done the same, but even better. Conn weighed in the 170's when he fought Louis the 1st time and Ali would come in at 210, that's 40 pounds more.

In the 2nd bout with Walcott, he was again losing and even hit the canvas, BUT Jersey Joe got cute and got tagged. Remember Walcott didn't have the Greatest chin either, as he was stopped 6 times during his career.