Originally posted by Brassangel
View Post
Ali had a great physical swiftness, and could therefore lean away from punches, but as Joe Louis would point out in his autobiography:
(Louis p 260), “Ali’s a great fighter, (but) he made too many mistakes, his hands are down a lot, and he takes too many punches to the body. I know what I’m talking about.
"Technically, Ali wasn't a very good fighter; it was just that his physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and chin) were so astonishing that he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters beaten up. Some may argue he did end beaten up when his career was over. George Foreman noted on his web-site () that after Ali’s speed diminished “it became apparent that he never really learned defense.”"
I, for one, would listen to Joe Louis, one of the greatest boxing brains in terms of solving opponents, before Nat Fleischer. Not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but still; Joe's experience in the ring speaks for itself, and he spent a lot of time with Ali and studying him on film.
George Chuvalo, who was slow footed, lacked pure punching skill or speed, managed to find success to Ali's body, setting up flush shots to the chin in the 13th round of their fight while Ali was in his prime. Doug Jones, a small heavyweight with modest ability was able to be competative with Ali because he had quick hands and a good jab of his own. In both fights with Henry Cooper, Ali was hit cleanly by jabs. Even though he went on to win these contests, very average opponents were able to give him trouble while he was at his quickest. A well-passed-his-prime Sonny Liston was less than centimeters behind Ali when he threw a jab, but instead decided to go for the kill in a fight that he didn't train seriously for. I can guarantee Liston would have landed that jackhammer jab to counter Ali's jab were he[Liston] any younger. Even if Ali's speed would have saved him, there's a good chance that Liston's jab would have forced a different strategy from the young, dancing Clay.
I never said that Ali didn't have a good jab, just that his jab left him open to counterpunching. Unfortunately for this theory, he never faced a top-notch contender who possessed this ability until later in his career. When he did, he got hit a lot.
Ali also used right uppercuts to try to catch incoming opponents, which often left the right side of his face wide open. Regardless of his time spent away from the ring, this is one reason why Frazier and Norton were able to catch him cleanly so often. His chin saved him in these fights, not his defense. Were it an opponent with faster hands and an ability to finish, such as Joe Louis or Mike Tyson, for example, Ali may not have recovered.
He was very difficult to hit from 1960-1967, because he never fought anyone with more than adequate ability to accomplish the simple measures for beating him; short of an over-the-hill Liston, or a quickly fading, suffering from back injury-laden Patterson.
Nonetheless, I still rate Muhammad Ali as my #2 all-time heavyweight (sometimes #1, depending on the day). I'm just making clear that a critical eye can really show how hittable, and downright beatable anyone in history truly is.
(Louis p 260), “Ali’s a great fighter, (but) he made too many mistakes, his hands are down a lot, and he takes too many punches to the body. I know what I’m talking about.
"Technically, Ali wasn't a very good fighter; it was just that his physical gifts (speed, reflexes, and chin) were so astonishing that he was able to get away with things that would have gotten most fighters beaten up. Some may argue he did end beaten up when his career was over. George Foreman noted on his web-site () that after Ali’s speed diminished “it became apparent that he never really learned defense.”"
I, for one, would listen to Joe Louis, one of the greatest boxing brains in terms of solving opponents, before Nat Fleischer. Not that he doesn't know what he's talking about, but still; Joe's experience in the ring speaks for itself, and he spent a lot of time with Ali and studying him on film.
George Chuvalo, who was slow footed, lacked pure punching skill or speed, managed to find success to Ali's body, setting up flush shots to the chin in the 13th round of their fight while Ali was in his prime. Doug Jones, a small heavyweight with modest ability was able to be competative with Ali because he had quick hands and a good jab of his own. In both fights with Henry Cooper, Ali was hit cleanly by jabs. Even though he went on to win these contests, very average opponents were able to give him trouble while he was at his quickest. A well-passed-his-prime Sonny Liston was less than centimeters behind Ali when he threw a jab, but instead decided to go for the kill in a fight that he didn't train seriously for. I can guarantee Liston would have landed that jackhammer jab to counter Ali's jab were he[Liston] any younger. Even if Ali's speed would have saved him, there's a good chance that Liston's jab would have forced a different strategy from the young, dancing Clay.
I never said that Ali didn't have a good jab, just that his jab left him open to counterpunching. Unfortunately for this theory, he never faced a top-notch contender who possessed this ability until later in his career. When he did, he got hit a lot.
Ali also used right uppercuts to try to catch incoming opponents, which often left the right side of his face wide open. Regardless of his time spent away from the ring, this is one reason why Frazier and Norton were able to catch him cleanly so often. His chin saved him in these fights, not his defense. Were it an opponent with faster hands and an ability to finish, such as Joe Louis or Mike Tyson, for example, Ali may not have recovered.
He was very difficult to hit from 1960-1967, because he never fought anyone with more than adequate ability to accomplish the simple measures for beating him; short of an over-the-hill Liston, or a quickly fading, suffering from back injury-laden Patterson.
Nonetheless, I still rate Muhammad Ali as my #2 all-time heavyweight (sometimes #1, depending on the day). I'm just making clear that a critical eye can really show how hittable, and downright beatable anyone in history truly is.
Wow nice post Brass!
Comment