BEST POUND 4 POUND CHAMP EVER? and top 10

[Canadian Boxer]

i agree completely roy at heavywieght wasfast yes and could pick them apart fromt he outside, but now..with all the speed gone hed just get hurt. i think he should shoot for the either LHW or SMW.

[Lubutheimmortal]

i agree completely roy at heavywieght wasfast yes and could pick them apart fromt he outside, but now..with all the speed gone hed just get hurt. i think he should shoot for the either LHW or SMW.

He should....

fight Hopkins @ LHW
fight Taylor @ SMW

I'd pay to see both fights.

[Canadian Boxer]

He should....

fight Hopkins @ LHW
fight Taylor @ SMW

I'd pay to see both fights.

hopkin and roy..aw man that be a good one hasn't bernard been wanting a rematch for a while to make up for his loss?
but taylor i donno i think roy would win by a landslide

[Brassangel]

A great champion can't be discounted for suffering his first loss at age 35, against a fighter he already beat once, after being weight drained from heavyweight to light-heavyweight. Add to that the fact that a chin is practically inborn and it's rediculous, if not plain ignorant to dismiss Jones as an all-time elite for these factors. Furthermore, his chin was only questionable in one fight...again, when he was 35, against a naturally larger opponent (who he beat once, and went the distance with the third time), and after shaving 25 pounds. This is such a small, and rare circumstance to point to and mark as the defining moment in his career. If Jones was able to go 26 rounds in three fights with Tarver while in his mid-to-late 30's, he would demolish him in his prime.

This is the same as saying that Roy Jones Jr. could never have been an all-time great simply because he was born with an allegedly weaker chin than some of the other greats. Even though he's probably faster, stronger, more skilled, with better stamina, longevity, and greater punching power. I guess none of that matters...his chin was suspect in one fight when he was old, that rules him out.

I don't mean to sound annoyed, but it's so insane to read such a lopsided rating of an all-time great because of one, freak occurence against a fighter who was well passed his prime. Why don't we just say that Larry Holmes proved that Ali was terrible against another good boxer? Or that Rocky Marciano would knock out Joe Louis every time? Or how about ranking Mike Tyson above Joe Louis because he had a way better chin, speed, movement rate, and possibly punching power? ARRRGGHHH!

As to B-Hop and RJJ in a rematch: I don't think that it would prove anything. Both fighters were green in their first fight (Jones was only 15-0), and both fighters are over the hill if they fight again. We never got to see them face each other in their prime. Nonetheless, it would sell tickets.

[Lubutheimmortal]

A great champion can't be discounted for suffering his first loss at age 35, against a fighter he already beat once, after being weight drained from heavyweight to light-heavyweight. Add to that the fact that a chin is practically inborn and it's rediculous, if not plain ignorant to dismiss Jones as an all-time elite for these factors. Furthermore, his chin was only questionable in one fight...again, when he was 35, against a naturally larger opponent (who he beat once, and went the distance with the third time), and after shaving 25 pounds. This is such a small, and rare circumstance to point to and mark as the defining moment in his career. If Jones was able to go 26 rounds in three fights with Tarver while in his mid-to-late 30's, he would demolish him in his prime.

This is the same as saying that Roy Jones Jr. could never have been an all-time great simply because he was born with an allegedly weaker chin than some of the other greats. Even though he's probably faster, stronger, more skilled, with better stamina, longevity, and greater punching power. I guess none of that matters...his chin was suspect in one fight when he was old, that rules him out.

I don't mean to sound annoyed, but it's so insane to read such a lopsided rating of an all-time great because of one, freak occurence against a fighter who was well passed his prime. Why don't we just say that Larry Holmes proved that Ali was terrible against another good boxer? Or that Rocky Marciano would knock out Joe Louis every time? Or how about ranking Mike Tyson above Joe Louis because he had a way better chin, speed, movement rate, and possibly punching power? ARRRGGHHH!

As to B-Hop and RJJ in a rematch: I don't think that it would prove anything. Both fighters were green in their first fight (Jones was only 15-0), and both fighters are over the hill if they fight again. We never got to see them face each other in their prime. Nonetheless, it would sell tickets.

I rank Joe Louis above Mike Tyson, and Rocky. So I do factor in "he was old then" losses and father time being the real winner. Tyson having a better chin then Louis? I dont think so, even if he does/did Louis had up for it in heart. I have already said my reasoning, if you disagree then cool beans. Its Jones's own fault for weight hoping so quickly, and didnt Glen Johnson also knock him out? Was that a freak occurance aswell? A freak occurance is Hearns KO'ing Duran in 2! That was a damn good shot and 99% of any fighter within 160'ish would of at least been knocked down! Duran proved that was the case. To ME Jones hasn't proved that. Dis credit me for believing you have to have a good chin and heart to be ranked amoung the ATG's. Why is Julian Jackson never in the top 10? HIS CHIN! But if you think Jones can go 15 rounds with a prime Robinson, Foreman, Louis, Duran, and ect in a p4p fight and not get hit solid 10+ times then thats cool go ahead but I dis agree. Before I get the "Your putting words in my mouth/replies", I am saying IF you think that way. We just have to agree to dis agree our reasoning tactics take different paths, and not a damn thing wrong with that. Peace.

[Brassangel]

First of all, Louis didn't have half of Tyson's chin. He [Louis] didn't ever show the ability to get his head snapped back for 10 or 11 rounds by bigger men before falling. The one or two instances where he took really good shots, they weren't even in consistent repetition (Schmeling and Marciano), and he still got KO'd pretty hard. Even so, I still rank Louis higher than Tyson as a champion, even though Tyson would probably fare better against more top 10 heavies than would Louis, simply given his style. Rankings have to factor their success as champion, as well as the marvel of their feats (ie: 25 defenses, 11+ years as champ vs. 10 defenses, 4 years, and youngest champ ever), etc.

Jones could probably go 15 rounds with a lot of people on a top 10 p4p list; but Mike Tyson shouldn't be scratching the surface of that list. His size, strength, reach, and power would give him sick advantages over lighter fighters, no matter how quick they were. His speed is also comparable to those of fighters much smaller than he is, and his chin would be nigh impregnable for someone 30+ pounds lighter than he is. He would have to exert much less force to put down SRR than he would Muhammad Ali, for example. Despite this, a top 10 p4p list should have very little to do with head-to-head matchups, and more to do with ability + accomplishments, or else the list looks rediculous and includes guys like Mike Tyson.

Seeing as how there is no real way to determine who would actually win the head-to-head matchups between two fighters of different eras, it only makes an argument look silly to assume that Duran, for example, would beat RJJ because his chin looked poor against a couple of guys way late in his career. It's impossible to know beyond speculation, and that speculation isn't reasonable unless there are insane advantage differences like those listed above in the Mike Tyson example. If that's the case, RJJ's combination of speed, power, reflexes, and stamina would be worlds beyond a lot of the classic fighters, outside of perhaps Sugar Ray Robinson, who would undoubtedly be first on my (and many other) list(s) anyway.

This is turning out a lot like that guy who said that Tua was a top 5 all-time heavyweight.

[Brassangel]

Also, why is Floyd Mayweather, Jr. on these lists then? He's got a good chin, a good body, good speed, decent power, masterful skill, the ability to change his plan when things are slightly awkward (ie: Castillo, Judah, De La Hoya), he's beaten the best of his day, he's won six championships, and he's got no signs of slowing down any time soon if he stays active. That's a little bit of everything, and according to these credentials, he'd stand a good chance against many fighters throughout history.

All that I'm saying, is picking one weak quality, which would matter only in very specific head-to-head matchups, is absolutely not a legitimate (debate) reason to keep someone off of a list who is just as skilled as they are, perhaps physically more gifted, with excellent championship accomplishments.

[LondonRingRules]

Like I've said I am not hating on RJJ, just stating my thoughts on his ranking with ATG's.

** Your thoughts need a major overhaul and makeover.

The first good big man Robinson faced he was beat by, Lamotta.

Maybe you need to understand that Robby was a skinny fellow who turned pro at around 130lbs. Roy turned pro at the 154 level and was extremely fast, strong, powerful, and unorthodox at the weight.

Robby is generally considered the best fighter in history with Greb, Pep, and Armstrong being his main competitors.

Yet Robby couldn't handle a smallish, featherfisted LH Maxim near Robby's peak as a fighter. He never waded in those waters again. He was beat many times at middle when he was still viable, but past his best which was LW/WW.

As a jr mid, mid. super mid Roy was the most powerful, fastest, most dominant fighter in these divisions of his era. He could have stayed as a middleweight and run up a Hop/Monzon type record easily.

You're asking way too much of Robby to beat a prime Roy, no different from Roy idolators who think he could beat Dempsey, Louis, Rocky, and Marciano or asking a Michael Spinks to beat Tyson or asking Rocky to beat Lewis.

Might as well build a bridge over the Pacific or Atlantic.

[kayjay]

One neglected fighter in these lists is the great Johnny "Tucan" McGinty

[Lubutheimmortal]

First of all, Louis didn't have half of Tyson's chin. He [Louis] didn't ever show the ability to get his head snapped back for 10 or 11 rounds by bigger men before falling. The one or two instances where he took really good shots, they weren't even in consistent repetition (Schmeling and Marciano), and he still got KO'd pretty hard. Even so, I still rank Louis higher than Tyson as a champion, even though Tyson would probably fare better against more top 10 heavies than would Louis, simply given his style. Rankings have to factor their success as champion, as well as the marvel of their feats (ie: 25 defenses, 11+ years as champ vs. 10 defenses, 4 years, and youngest champ ever), etc.

Jones could probably go 15 rounds with a lot of people on a top 10 p4p list; but Mike Tyson shouldn't be scratching the surface of that list. His size, strength, reach, and power would give him sick advantages over lighter fighters, no matter how quick they were. His speed is also comparable to those of fighters much smaller than he is, and his chin would be nigh impregnable for someone 30+ pounds lighter than he is. He would have to exert much less force to put down SRR than he would Muhammad Ali, for example. Despite this, a top 10 p4p list should have very little to do with head-to-head matchups, and more to do with ability + accomplishments, or else the list looks rediculous and includes guys like Mike Tyson.

Seeing as how there is no real way to determine who would actually win the head-to-head matchups between two fighters of different eras, it only makes an argument look silly to assume that Duran, for example, would beat RJJ because his chin looked poor against a couple of guys way late in his career. It's impossible to know beyond speculation, and that speculation isn't reasonable unless there are insane advantage differences like those listed above in the Mike Tyson example. If that's the case, RJJ's combination of speed, power, reflexes, and stamina would be worlds beyond a lot of the classic fighters, outside of perhaps Sugar Ray Robinson, who would undoubtedly be first on my (and many other) list(s) anyway.

This is turning out a lot like that guy who said that Tua was a top 5 all-time heavyweight.

Tyson isnt even in my top 10 HWY's.. ? I agree with you totally about your statments concerning him, BUT like I said even if Tyson's chin was better then Tyson Louis made up for it with his heart. So trying to think out who is a better fighter, and how they would win in a p4p fight against other ATG's is silly to you? Thats cool man whatever insult me all you want doesnt bother me. We see things differently as I have said over and over and over. Keep on proving that fact by all means.

Also, why is Floyd Mayweather, Jr. on these lists then? He's got a good chin, a good body, good speed, decent power, masterful skill, the ability to change his plan when things are slightly awkward (ie: Castillo, Judah, De La Hoya), he's beaten the best of his day, he's won six championships, and he's got no signs of slowing down any time soon if he stays active. That's a little bit of everything, and according to these credentials, he'd stand a good chance against many fighters throughout history.

All that I'm saying, is picking one weak quality, which would matter only in very specific head-to-head matchups, is absolutely not a legitimate (debate) reason to keep someone off of a list who is just as skilled as they are, perhaps physically more gifted, with excellent championship accomplishments.

I wont include him yet cause he hasnt been retired (like legit). Only then I'll know 100% of everything he did/has done.

** Your thoughts need a major overhaul and makeover.

The first good big man Robinson faced he was beat by, Lamotta.

Maybe you need to understand that Robby was a skinny fellow who turned pro at around 130lbs. Roy turned pro at the 154 level and was extremely fast, strong, powerful, and unorthodox at the weight.

Robby is generally considered the best fighter in history with Greb, Pep, and Armstrong being his main competitors.

Yet Robby couldn't handle a smallish, featherfisted LH Maxim near Robby's peak as a fighter. He never waded in those waters again. He was beat many times at middle when he was still viable, but past his best which was LW/WW.

As a jr mid, mid. super mid Roy was the most powerful, fastest, most dominant fighter in these divisions of his era. He could have stayed as a middleweight and run up a Hop/Monzon type record easily.

You're asking way too much of Robby to beat a prime Roy, no different from Roy idolators who think he could beat Dempsey, Louis, Rocky, and Marciano or asking a Michael Spinks to beat Tyson or asking Rocky to beat Lewis.

Might as well build a bridge over the Pacific or Atlantic.

Thats why its p4p,....size and weight doesnt factor in.