Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[Marchegiano]

The guy who wears velcro shoes won't give you a straight answer. He's only hear to parrot what he has heard.

But I will be the first to say the hagiography of Dempsey was ridiculous. If you didn't know who Arcel was, you'd think he was some loon pulled off the street. Not even Boxing fan, just a first rate nut job.

Sullivan and Dempsey were deified, so there's a lot written about them that's unrealistic. However, they've since suffered the worst at the hands of the revisionists, while inferior fighters like Gans, Langford, Wills, Johnson, Ali and even Robinson have been exalted to a level they never really attained in their own time.

That's not to excuse ridiculous comments made to glorify Dempsey and his prowess, but it shows that no one maintains those beliefs any longer and the issue of hagiography is still very real and needs to be contended with.

Seems a bit whiny.

When Dempsey ducks no author buries him for being a pansy or a racist. Everyone very forgiving of the color line and no one ever directly claims he was ducking. The most you will ever read is Dempsey's reasoning, the other side's reasoning, and the author's pansy ass *****footing with possibilities. The guys at the IBRO don't have the balls to call Dempsey anything but a great champion who might have, maybe, possibly, made some moves that don't shine so well today.

However, when the reader reads, no one can control their take away.

Simple as can be.

I don't like Dempsey as much as I used to because I read about him.

I don't like Dempsey as much as my grandfather's generation because I had the information on hand to read about him.

I like Burns more than I used to. I like Hart more than I used to. I like Fitz more than I used to, I like Jeffries more than I used to. Dempsey and Sully both take a hit because neither of them live up to their claims or the claims made during their deification.

Corbett's not heavily praised or treated like any sort of boxing jesus. So when you read into Corbett and find he did some ****y **** too it doesn't take him down a peg because he was never placed above his own achievements.

Dempsey and Sullivan were.

Especially ****ing Sully. That guy's not even a champion. He's a ****ing claimant that's more popular than the other claimants and beat 0 of them for his title 'cause all he needed was a draw. So, Sully falls a ****load because plenty of people like to pretend "lick any sonuva ***** in the building" actually did that when in fact he drew the English champion, refused the colored, and beat a man who was propped up by a ****zine for his fame.


Dempsey fought mostly jokes. Porky Dan Flynn, Billy Miske, these guys are not resume names. I used to believe it was just the times, then I seen the same names getting their asses handed to them by black fighters. hmmmmmmmmm

If mother ****er wants to claim he's the best he needs to prove it. No matter how many old codgers tell me Dempsey was special there's not a god damn thing that man did to prove it outside of be a hypejob early in his career.

Just like Sullivan.

The media told America to love him so they did. Did he do ****? Not really, no. Color line a good excuse? Not really given guys before him and after him did fight colored champions.

[HOUDINI563]

The skills Dempsey exhibited in the ring were over the top. Everything those that watched him live said he exhibited you see when you watch him in action.

Other than Wills who unfortunately was barred from fighting for the championship as were all black heavyweights whom did Dempsey avoid? If you say Greb, a 165 middleweight, that’s a joke. First a fight like that is a no win situation for Dempsey. If he kos the middleweight quickly which is very highly probable all he would hear would be criticism that he fought a middleweight. Doing well in a sparring session wearing 14-16 oz gloves to muffle the heavyweights punching power is quite different than being hit with fists encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves which were brick like in a real fight.

I always like to remember two quotes regarding Dempsey:

First from perhaps the greatest pfp fighter ever Sam Langford:

“Jack Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen”

Then Jack Sharkey the only man to fight both Dempsey and Louis:

“I never knew anyone could hit that hard. He came at you in a little ball and when he hit you on the shoulder he broke your shoulder. When he hit you to the body it felt as if his fist was coming out your back. When he hit you on the hip he dislocated your hip.”

The thing to remember about first hand accounts/critiques concerning ATG fighters is that those same people do not lay the same praise upon other heavyweights that fought prior to, during or just after Dempsey. As an example experts did not write such praise regarding Sharkey or Willard or Schmeling or Burns etc. Johnson YES, Jeffries YES, Louis YES. So expert opinion lines up very well with expert thought as the decades passed.

[JAB5239]

McGovern
McFarland
Driscoll
Graham
Archer
Fury


These are fighters who were clearly the victims of injustice. Looks like Irish, not Blacks or anyone else, have suffered the most.

I can actually provide evidence. I don't need to. Their careers are well known. But I didn't need supposed dozens of writers and articles written decades latter to support my assertion.

So basically you have nothing to show? I figured.

And as far as Irish boxers go.....they were the draw back then. It's why so many fighters changed their last names to Irish surnames. Unless you can prove otherwise?

[JAB5239]

Again, not trying to insult you, but anyone who passed High School should have no hesitation dismissing that article.

First of all, it comes 14 years after the event. Second, it relies on a particular INTERPRETATION of circumstantial evidence. Third, it comes from an era when journalism was particularly questionable and carries a clear bias for Gans.

Again, we have THE FIGHT. We have their records, and accompanying reports which weren't generated by bias. The fact that you'll pass up primary information for a hagiography shows your educational and intellectual limitation.

Do you actually believe the crap you're trying to peddle here?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Seems a bit whiny.

When Dempsey ducks no author buries him for being a pansy or a racist. Everyone very forgiving of the color line and no one ever directly claims he was ducking. The most you will ever read is Dempsey's reasoning, the other side's reasoning, and the author's pansy ass *****footing with possibilities. The guys at the IBRO don't have the balls to call Dempsey anything but a great champion who might have, maybe, possibly, made some moves that don't shine so well today.

However, when the reader reads, no one can control their take away.

Simple as can be.

I don't like Dempsey as much as I used to because I read about him.

I don't like Dempsey as much as my grandfather's generation because I had the information on hand to read about him.

I like Burns more than I used to. I like Hart more than I used to. I like Fitz more than I used to, I like Jeffries more than I used to. Dempsey and Sully both take a hit because neither of them live up to their claims or the claims made during their deification.

Corbett's not heavily praised or treated like any sort of boxing jesus. So when you read into Corbett and find he did some ****y **** too it doesn't take him down a peg because he was never placed above his own achievements.

Dempsey and Sullivan were.

Especially ****ing Sully. That guy's not even a champion. He's a ****ing claimant that's more popular than the other claimants and beat 0 of them for his title 'cause all he needed was a draw. So, Sully falls a ****load because plenty of people like to pretend "lick any sonuva ***** in the building" actually did that when in fact he drew the English champion, refused the colored, and beat a man who was propped up by a ****zine for his fame.


Dempsey fought mostly jokes. Porky Dan Flynn, Billy Miske, these guys are not resume names. I used to believe it was just the times, then I seen the same names getting their asses handed to them by black fighters. hmmmmmmmmm

If mother ****er wants to claim he's the best he needs to prove it. No matter how many old codgers tell me Dempsey was special there's not a god damn thing that man did to prove it outside of be a hypejob early in his career.

Just like Sullivan.

The media told America to love him so they did. Did he do ****? Not really, no. Color line a good excuse? Not really given guys before him and after him did fight colored champions.

I used to say crazy sh.it when I was young, too.

[Rusty Tromboni]

So basically you have nothing to show? I figured.

And as far as Irish boxers go.....they were the draw back then. It's why so many fighters changed their last names to Irish surnames. Unless you can prove otherwise?

Every one of those fighters was patently screwed out of what was rightfully his.

Yes, the Irish were the main draw and largely controlled the sport, but that didn't preclude all of them from being screwed over. Especially when it wasn't organizations that owned the belts, there was no one to strip a champion who didn't want to permit a particulary challenger to fight for the belt.

Even Loughran, can be added to the list. Owney Madden, an Irish Gangster, owner Primo Carnera, he made Loughran agree that the Heavyweight crown would only change hands if Loughran scored a knockout....

Again, each on of those fighters were verifiably denied what was his. I'd like see hard evidence proving the same of Gans And Langford. Burley was unfortunate, but the color of his skin was less to blame than his style and bad-timing.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Do you actually believe the crap you're trying to peddle here?

ignorance isn't a defense. Go ahead, post it again. I'll tear it apart.

Why do you refuse to watch the fight?


Why do you refuse to reveiw their records?


Why do you need an anonymous dozen writers to formulate your opinions for you?

[Rusty Tromboni]

The skills Dempsey exhibited in the ring were over the top. Everything those that watched him live said he exhibited you see when you watch him in action.

Other than Wills who unfortunately was barred from fighting for the championship as were all black heavyweights whom did Dempsey avoid? If you say Greb, a 165 middleweight, that’s a joke. First a fight like that is a no win situation for Dempsey. If he kos the middleweight quickly which is very highly probable all he would hear would be criticism that he fought a middleweight. Doing well in a sparring session wearing 14-16 oz gloves to muffle the heavyweights punching power is quite different than being hit with fists encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves which were brick like in a real fight.

I always like to remember two quotes regarding Dempsey:

First from perhaps the greatest pfp fighter ever Sam Langford:

“Jack Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen?br />
Then Jack Sharkey the only man to fight both Dempsey and Louis:

“I never knew anyone could hit that hard. He came at you in a little ball and when he hit you on the shoulder he broke your shoulder. When he hit you to the body it felt as if his fist was coming out your back. When he hit you on the hip he dislocated your hip.?br />
The thing to remember about first hand accounts/critiques concerning ATG fighters is that those same people do not lay the same praise upon other heavyweights that fought prior to, during or just after Dempsey. As an example experts did not write such praise regarding Sharkey or Willard or Schmeling or Burns etc. Johnson YES, Jeffries YES, Louis YES. So expert opinion lines up very well with expert thought as the decades passed.

Dempsey didn't have Robinson's refinement.

But I wonder how people can so comfortably call Robinson the P4P King, when Dempsey had better head movement and hit harder.

It was just as hot in Toledo when Dempsey took out WIllard as it was in Manhattan when Robinson got Hot Flashes against Maxim.

[JAB5239]

Every one of those fighters was patently screwed out of what was rightfully his.

Yes, the Irish were the main draw and largely controlled the sport, but that didn't preclude all of them from being screwed over. Especially when it wasn't organizations that owned the belts, there was no one to strip a champion who didn't want to permit a particulary challenger to fight for the belt.

Even Loughran, can be added to the list. Owney Madden, an Irish Gangster, owner Primo Carnera, he made Loughran agree that the Heavyweight crown would only change hands if Loughran scored a knockout....

Again, each on of those fighters were verifiably denied what was his. I'd like see hard evidence proving the same of Gans And Langford. Burley was unfortunate, but the color of his skin was less to blame than his style and bad-timing.

The fact that Langford was never given a title shot should be enough. You mention Burley, why no mention of Eddie Booker or Bert Lytell, jack Chase or Aaron Wade? Holman Williams? Cocoa kid? Should I go back further and rehash Langford and Wills? All these guys were excellent fighters either ducked or denied a title shot. There is plenty of history about it.

[JAB5239]

ignorance isn't a defense. Go ahead, post it again. I'll tear it apart.

Why do you refuse to watch the fight?


Why do you refuse to reveiw their records?


Why do you need an anonymous dozen writers to formulate your opinions for you?

I've watched the fights, read the views of boxing historians and the newspapers of the day. I've reviewed records extensively for many years now, which plenty of posters here can attest to. The bottom line though, your opinion holds no water, and neither rhyme not reason. I'm not trying to be mean, it's just how it is.