Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[Hawkins]

Sorry Hawk should have been more specific when mentioning footwork, I agree with you that going backwards simply isn't the way to beat Tyson. I did actually mean lateral movement when I specified footwork which is what Douglas gave him, remember that finishing combo and how he moved to the left and threw the jab and then moved back to the right and threw another jab followed by right uppercut, left hook and overhand right and down goes Tyson.

It is a shame he never had a peak Holyfield,Bowe or Lewis to fight when he had just unified the titles and before he got bored and lost interest. Maybe he would have been better for longer if they were all knocking at the door.

It's a travesty really because not only did Tyson lose out all of boxing did and we could have had a heavyweight version of Hagler,Hearns,Duran and Leonard, with them all fighting each other in a series of fights that I feel would have matched anything from the 70's.

Don't you think that it would have been a vastly different fight had Tyson been using his usual MO of head/body movement? It would have allowed Buster to miss then opened up for Tyson to attack inside. I mean how many times have we seen Tyson use the head movement, and body movement, to make guys miss?

I just don't think that a Rooney trained Tyson would have allowed the fight with Buster to get the point it did. Sad part is when he run into some rough waters Tyson was lost, especially without a good corner telling him what he needed to do. Those idiots with him in Tokyo had about as much clue of what to do as Tyson.

But you're right the 80's had the potential to be good. There were some talented fighters, unfortunately all of them seemed to be majorly flawed to the point that it drowned out the talent.

As much as I have debated about the validity of Tyson's greatness it is unfair what happened to him. I mean he was a grown man but the enviroment he grew up in had him less prepared to deal with life's pitfalls than most normal individuals. Others exploited that and the rest is history.

[-CANE-]

Don't you think that it would have been a vastly different fight had Tyson been using his usual MO of head/body movement? It would have allowed Buster to miss then opened up for Tyson to attack inside. I mean how many times have we seen Tyson use the head movement, and body movement, to make guys miss?

I just don't think that a Rooney trained Tyson would have allowed the fight with Buster to get the point it did. Sad part is when he run into some rough waters Tyson was lost, especially without a good corner telling him what he needed to do. Those idiots with him in Tokyo had about as much clue of what to do as Tyson.

But you're right the 80's had the potential to be good. There were some talented fighters, unfortunately all of them seemed to be majorly flawed to the point that it drowned out the talent.

As much as I have debated about the validity of Tyson's greatness it is unfair what happened to him. I mean he was a grown man but the enviroment he grew up in had him less prepared to deal with life's pitfalls than most normal individuals. Others exploited that and the rest is history.

It's difficult to say Hawk even with Rooney in his corner, how much difference would it have made. Tyson was having a lot of problems outside the ring and could Rooney have got him motivated enough.

If he had and Tyson fought using his upperbody and head movement then certainly the fight would have been different but would the outcome have been. I see Tyson winning the first 4-5 rounds and if by then Douglas was still standing then Douglas would start coming back into the fight.

Don't forget Buster Douglas was fighting for more than himself that night what with the death of his mother.

The questions then are, can Rooney keep Tyson motivated enough to carry out his gameplan for the rest of the fight?

How does Tyson react if Douglas is still in there and firing back after 5 rounds?

Can Rooney stop Tyson from getting disheartened?

Can Douglas claw back the defecit of losing the first 4-5 rounds?

There are so many questions of before and during the fight with the majority being regarding Tyson and his frame of mind.

Could or Would have Rooney really been able to make a difference with everything surrounding Tyson so that he came into the ring at his very best that he could of? I seriously don't know whether he could of. I just think for all of his faults in not disciplining Tyson and teaching him the finer points in life, that probably there was only one man that could have made a difference and really the one and only man Tyson truly trusted and listened to and that was Cus.

So I say no one could have made a real difference that night other than Cus or Tyson himself and with his unstable mind and attitude it was never gonna be Tyson.

Hawk - I wasn't indicating the 80's could have been good, I was really thinking of the early to mid 90's if Tyson was still champion and Holyfield,Bowe and Lewis were all knocking at the door and the four of them all fought each other, that would have been the greatest thing imaginable.
They could have fought each other more than once each with the title keep going back and forth.

But I do agree with you Hawk that it truly was sad what happened to Tyson and how he turned out, because I believe deep down the real Tyson is the nice and polite one we saw not the angry and confused bad mouthing animal that we did see on many occasions.

[Hawkins]

It's difficult to say Hawk even with Rooney in his corner, how much difference would it have made. Tyson was having a lot of problems outside the ring and could Rooney have got him motivated enough.

If he had and Tyson fought using his upperbody and head movement then certainly the fight would have been different but would the outcome have been. I see Tyson winning the first 4-5 rounds and if by then Douglas was still standing then Douglas would start coming back into the fight.

Don't forget Buster Douglas was fighting for more than himself that night what with the death of his mother.

The questions then are, can Rooney keep Tyson motivated enough to carry out his gameplan for the rest of the fight?

How does Tyson react if Douglas is still in there and firing back after 5 rounds?

Can Rooney stop Tyson from getting disheartened?

Can Douglas claw back the defecit of losing the first 4-5 rounds?

There are so many questions of before and during the fight with the majority being regarding Tyson and his frame of mind.

Could or Would have Rooney really been able to make a difference with everything surrounding Tyson so that he came into the ring at his very best that he could of? I seriously don't know whether he could of. I just think for all of his faults in not disciplining Tyson and teaching him the finer points in life, that probably there was only one man that could have made a difference and really the one and only man Tyson truly trusted and listened to and that was Cus.

So I say no one could have made a real difference that night other than Cus or Tyson himself and with his unstable mind and attitude it was never gonna be Tyson.

That's the big question, one that can never be answered at that, but I think had Rooney stayed Don King would have had less of a hold over Tyson. Don King reminds me of a guy that will do anything in the world to get in a girls pants, and will not stop until he has gotten what he wants. Thats the tactics he used on Tyson. Don King wanted Rooney out of the way so he could have total control and thats what happened.

Rooney got replaced by Snowell, a King stooge, and the rest is history. However, back to the point, I think had Rooney stayed Tyson's head wouldn't have been exposed and his defense would have been very tight. Plus I also think if Douglas had won it would have been by decision and not a KO because of the aforementioned holes in Mike's game that night.

The thing that beckons to me the most about the Rooney-less corner is how those idiots didn't have the proper tools to work with in the corner. No endswell??? Are you kidding me??? But had Rooney been there, Tyson's defense would have been much better and they would have been well prepared in the corner. To me, Tyson's swollen eye in the later rounds attributed to alot of the harder punishment he absorbed because I don't think he could adequately see those right hands coming with his eye as bad as it was.

I just think had Kevin Rooney been there, while not guaranteeing a Mike Tyson win, it would have been a different fight all together. Would Mike Tyson's being with Rooney eclipse Douglas' motivation? No one knows but its interesting to hypothesize.

Hawk - I wasn't indicating the 80's could have been good, I was really thinking of the early to mid 90's if Tyson was still champion and Holyfield,Bowe and Lewis were all knocking at the door and the four of them all fought each other, that would have been the greatest thing imaginable.
They could have fought each other more than once each with the title keep going back and forth.

But I do agree with you Hawk that it truly was sad what happened to Tyson and how he turned out, because I believe deep down the real Tyson is the nice and polite one we saw not the angry and confused bad mouthing animal that we did see on many occasions.

I know what you mean about Bowe, Lennox and Evander. But I think the 80's could have been alot better as well...If Pinklon Thomas hadn't been so lazy in the gym what could he have become? I mean to me, I think he was very talented. If Tony Tucker had been able to stay away from drugs and kept his head could he have reached his full potential? These are just two examples.

And I agree. I think Tyson is a genuinely nice guy with vast mental problems. Sadly his detriments were exploited for the gain of others and we have the Tyson of today.

[-CANE-]

That's the big question, one that can never be answered at that, but I think had Rooney stayed Don King would have had less of a hold over Tyson. Don King reminds me of a guy that will do anything in the world to get in a girls pants, and will not stop until he has gotten what he wants. Thats the tactics he used on Tyson. Don King wanted Rooney out of the way so he could have total control and thats what happened.

Rooney got replaced by Snowell, a King stooge, and the rest is history. However, back to the point, I think had Rooney stayed Tyson's head wouldn't have been exposed and his defense would have been very tight. Plus I also think if Douglas had won it would have been by decision and not a KO because of the aforementioned holes in Mike's game that night.

The thing that beckons to me the most about the Rooney-less corner is how those idiots didn't have the proper tools to work with in the corner. No endswell??? Are you kidding me??? But had Rooney been there, Tyson's defense would have been much better and they would have been well prepared in the corner. To me, Tyson's swollen eye in the later rounds attributed to alot of the harder punishment he absorbed because I don't think he could adequately see those right hands coming with his eye as bad as it was.

I just think had Kevin Rooney been there, while not guaranteeing a Mike Tyson win, it would have been a different fight all together. Would Mike Tyson's being with Rooney eclipse Douglas' motivation? No one knows but its interesting to hypothesize.





I know what you mean about Bowe, Lennox and Evander. But I think the 80's could have been alot better as well...If Pinklon Thomas hadn't been so lazy in the gym what could he have become? I mean to me, I think he was very talented. If Tony Tucker had been able to stay away from drugs and kept his head could he have reached his full potential? These are just two examples.

And I agree. I think Tyson is a genuinely nice guy with vast mental problems. Sadly his detriments were exploited for the gain of others and we have the Tyson of today.

You're right, is it interesting to hypothesize and great fun as well.
Just thinking back to the Tucker and Bonecrusher fights and even when all was well with Tyson in his prime with Rooney in his corner he still neglected the upperbody and head movement later in a fight which Douglas could have capitalized on and I agree with you if he was to win it would have probably been on points as they would have used an enswell on that eye and done a much better job. Just trying to think back as to the scoring of the Douglas fight, didn't one judge have it level and one actually had Tyson in front having done absolutely nothing except for flooring Douglas in the eighth round. So in reality had a much better Tyson shown up and actually won the first 4-5 rounds and then proceeded to get beaten then it's really hard to see how they would have given Douglas the nod. King had bought 2 of the judges it seems, and tried to protect his money machine every concievable way he could think of.

[Hawkins]

You're right, is it interesting to hypothesize and great fun as well.
Just thinking back to the Tucker and Bonecrusher fights and even when all was well with Tyson in his prime with Rooney in his corner he still neglected the upperbody and head movement later in a fight which Douglas could have capitalized on and I agree with you if he was to win it would have probably been on points as they would have used an enswell on that eye and done a much better job. Just trying to think back as to the scoring of the Douglas fight, didn't one judge have it level and one actually had Tyson in front having done absolutely nothing except for flooring Douglas in the eighth round. So in reality had a much better Tyson shown up and actually won the first 4-5 rounds and then proceeded to get beaten then it's really hard to see how they would have given Douglas the nod. King had bought 2 of the judges it seems, and tried to protect his money machine every concievable way he could think of.

Yea, thats a point I have always made about Tyson. I don't know if it's tiredness or his mental lapses but later in a fight he isn't the same fighter and I can't help but think had Tucker not broken his hand what that fight might have been. Tucker did great in the early rounds so one never knows.

The scoring for that fight was so sideways it wasn't even funny. I think only one judge got it right. I think one had it something like 7-2 Douglas, one had it 5-4 Tyson and one had it even. It was crazy scoring, but Don King was involved so that may be why.

[-CANE-]

Yea, thats a point I have always made about Tyson. I don't know if it's tiredness or his mental lapses but later in a fight he isn't the same fighter and I can't help but think had Tucker not broken his hand what that fight might have been. Tucker did great in the early rounds so one never knows.

The scoring for that fight was so sideways it wasn't even funny. I think only one judge got it right. I think one had it something like 7-2 Douglas, one had it 5-4 Tyson and one had it even. It was crazy scoring, but Don King was involved so that may be why.

Tucker did have some ability and had the tools to beat Tyson and he gave Lewis a pretty good fight as well. Could have achieved more but so could a lot of others.

I remember when Tyson had just unified the titles and everyone raved about him and saying he was unbeatable, but I disagreed even back then. I remember also back then that I used to say if anyone could beat Tyson then it was Tim Witherspoon. When fit like against Holmes he was a very good fighter, sort of reminded me of Liston with a little less power. To this day I think he threw the bonecrusher fight. There was something seriously wrong with that fight, to go down 3 times in the 1st round against a man he had already beaten. Maybe he just didn't want a part of Tyson or more likely Don King was involved. Witherspoon had his disagreements with King and maybe King was never going to give him a shot at the title and bought him, I never heard this but it's a theory I have.

The scoring in that Douglas fight has to be the worst I have ever seen and I've seen some robberies but that was criminal, luckily Douglas stopped that from being the worst decision of all time.

[Hawkins]

Tucker did have some ability and had the tools to beat Tyson and he gave Lewis a pretty good fight as well. Could have achieved more but so could a lot of others.

I remember when Tyson had just unified the titles and everyone raved about him and saying he was unbeatable, but I disagreed even back then. I remember also back then that I used to say if anyone could beat Tyson then it was Tim Witherspoon. When fit like against Holmes he was a very good fighter, sort of reminded me of Liston with a little less power. To this day I think he threw the bonecrusher fight. There was something seriously wrong with that fight, to go down 3 times in the 1st round against a man he had already beaten. Maybe he just didn't want a part of Tyson or more likely Don King was involved. Witherspoon had his disagreements with King and maybe King was never going to give him a shot at the title and bought him, I never heard this but it's a theory I have.

The scoring in that Douglas fight has to be the worst I have ever seen and I've seen some robberies but that was criminal, luckily Douglas stopped that from being the worst decision of all time.

I agree, the Bonecrusher fight was something else. I wondered what in the hell could have happened? I had high hopes for 'Spoon at one point. Don King had such complete control over the 80's heavyweights that there is no telling what he could have perpetuated.

Tucker was always a favorite of mine, being from my hometown I always cheered for him and thought he had tons of potential but I think when the US boycotted the Olympics and he lost that chance it really defined his career. I think his druguse really hampered his career and thats a shame.

One particular heavyweight encounter I always liked was Holmes/Berbick..the lead up to the fight, the fight itself. Berbick was another under achiever too. Alot of those guys could have been alot better in my estimation.

[-CANE-]

I agree, the Bonecrusher fight was something else. I wondered what in the hell could have happened? I had high hopes for 'Spoon at one point. Don King had such complete control over the 80's heavyweights that there is no telling what he could have perpetuated.

Tucker was always a favorite of mine, being from my hometown I always cheered for him and thought he had tons of potential but I think when the US boycotted the Olympics and he lost that chance it really defined his career. I think his druguse really hampered his career and thats a shame.

One particular heavyweight encounter I always liked was Holmes/Berbick..the lead up to the fight, the fight itself. Berbick was another under achiever too. Alot of those guys could have been alot better in my estimation.

I can't remember actually seeing Holmes/Berbick I'll have to check that out.
Actually the 80's could have been much better thinking about it, there were a lot of fighters with talent they were just lazy.

Tony Tubbs could have been so much better, the speed of his hands for such a big man, if he trained properly and lost a lot of weight around the middle he could have been really good.

[Hawkins]

I can't remember actually seeing Holmes/Berbick I'll have to check that out.
Actually the 80's could have been much better thinking about it, there were a lot of fighters with talent they were just lazy.

Tony Tubbs could have been so much better, the speed of his hands for such a big man, if he trained properly and lost a lot of weight around the middle he could have been really good.

You don't remember Holmes and Berbick? With Larry jumping off the car doing the flying dropkick on Berbick? Classic stuff man. Berbick saying right before "Larry Holmes punched me come over and punched me!"

Tony Tubbs was aptly named. He coulda been much better, just like Buster Mathis before him and Rid**** Bowe after. The dinner table was a killer to the career.

[Jim Jeffries]

You're right, is it interesting to hypothesize and great fun as well.
Just thinking back to the Tucker and Bonecrusher fights and even when all was well with Tyson in his prime with Rooney in his corner he still neglected the upperbody and head movement later in a fight which Douglas could have capitalized on and I agree with you if he was to win it would have probably been on points as they would have used an enswell on that eye and done a much better job. Just trying to think back as to the scoring of the Douglas fight, didn't one judge have it level and one actually had Tyson in front having done absolutely nothing except for flooring Douglas in the eighth round. So in reality had a much better Tyson shown up and actually won the first 4-5 rounds and then proceeded to get beaten then it's really hard to see how they would have given Douglas the nod. King had bought 2 of the judges it seems, and tried to protect his money machine every concievable way he could think of.

Wow, just noticed Tucker was KOd by Bruce Seldon and John Ruiz (lol) and was knocked out in the second round by Herbie Hide (who was KOd in the 2nd by Vitali Klitschko)