Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?

[LondonRingRules]

Ignoring that Wlad actually sports the better record, lets take a look at Vitali's impact on the heavy division.

Here's IBRO top 20. Who has a chance to beat Vitali in the bunch? Keep in mind that all but Rocky have significant losses on their records, so I don't want to here the usual bleating of doggerel 8th grade poets making their favorites gimmees over Vitali when we know that ain't the way it's ever gonna go down.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Vitali didn't look hot beating down JCGomez, but lets face facts here. Gomez is not only hugely bigger/stronger than the Mildenberger that had Ali in some trouble, but his record of excellence against top level fighters a light year ahead of Mildi's record.

Still, Vitali steadily zeroed in and as far as I can tell, appears to be the first to ever KD Gomez. The fight a very technical one as I had predicted on another board, not a slug fest, which broaches the obvious question, who is a better pure boxer than Vitali in history in the art of hitting without being hit?

Have at it idolators and haters alike. I want to see a good scrap!

[KostyaTszyu44]

Ignoring that Wlad actually sports the better record, lets take a look at Vitali's impact on the heavy division.

Here's IBRO top 20. Who has a chance to beat Vitali in the bunch? Keep in mind that all but Rocky have significant losses on their records, so I don't want to here the usual bleating of doggerel 8th grade poets making their favorites gimmees over Vitali when we know that ain't the way it's ever gonna go down.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Vitali didn't look hot beating down JCGomez, but lets face facts here. Gomez is not only hugely bigger/stronger than the Mildenberger that had Ali in some trouble, but his record of excellence against top level fighters a light year ahead of Mildi's record.

Still, Vitali steadily zeroed in and as far as I can tell, appears to be the first to ever KD Gomez. The fight a very technical one as I had predicted on another board, not a slug fest, which broaches the obvious question, who is a better pure boxer than Vitali in history in the art of hitting without being hit?

Have at it idolators and haters alike. I want to see a good scrap!

the ones in bold would all beat Vitali in my view

size isnt everything, vitali is very slow like all men that size and its not like he automatically storms over opponents, chris byrd beat him as did an old lewis, he isnt a superhuman monster, hes just big and tough with a solid chin/punch and ok skills

[Thread Stealer]

I don't know. You look at Vitali's size and strength and he does do things well. He gauges distance well, as he often gets away with sloppy habits like leaning back. He throws arm punches frequently but has heavy enough hands and accuracy that the damage will build up. He showed a solid chin against Lewis.

But then, you look at the guys he's done it against. Yes I know a lot of guys face weak-ish opposition, especially in the HW division, but Vitali's is especially weak, and didn't even beat the top guys in the division.

The Lewis he faced hadn't fought in over a year, was aging, and not in good shape. Yeah he gave Lewis trouble, but so did Frank Bruno for 6 rounds. So did Mercer for 10. And those were against better versions of Lewis. Yeah, he was beating Byrd on points, but still lost, and I can only give so much credit to "well he was doing well before he lost", injury/cut or not.

[Slimey Limey]

I think every single one of them except for Wills and Langford would beat him. If Sam the man gained weight he would also beat Vit.

[them_apples]

anyone fast would beat him, although he did give an older Lennox hell.

[JAB5239]

Ignoring that Wlad actually sports the better record, lets take a look at Vitali's impact on the heavy division.

Here's IBRO top 20. Who has a chance to beat Vitali in the bunch? Keep in mind that all but Rocky have significant losses on their records, so I don't want to here the usual bleating of doggerel 8th grade poets making their favorites gimmees over Vitali when we know that ain't the way it's ever gonna go down.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Vitali didn't look hot beating down JCGomez, but lets face facts here. Gomez is not only hugely bigger/stronger than the Mildenberger that had Ali in some trouble, but his record of excellence against top level fighters a light year ahead of Mildi's record.

Still, Vitali steadily zeroed in and as far as I can tell, appears to be the first to ever KD Gomez. The fight a very technical one as I had predicted on another board, not a slug fest, which broaches the obvious question, who is a better pure boxer than Vitali in history in the art of hitting without being hit?

Have at it idolators and haters alike. I want to see a good scrap!

Head to head Vitaly is an imposing figure for any fighter in history. I think Lennox beats him. Ali. Maybe Holmes. Maybe Louis. I think Tunney could give him fits, and I would favor Holyfield and Foreman. Tyson might be able to pull the trick but I wouldn't be willing to bet on it. Everybody else I think he beats clearly.

[JAB5239]

I think every single one of them except for Wills and Langford would beat him. If Sam the man gained weight he would also beat Vit.

And how would Sam beat him if he gained weight? As great as Langford was he's still giving up more than a foot in height, would still be at a considerable weight disadvantage, and in all likelyhood lose speed by gaining your hypothetical pounds. So tell us exactly why you think he would beat Vitaly if he "gained weight". tell us of all his advantages in this fantasy match up.

[LondonRingRules]

Vitali's is especially weak, and didn't even beat the top guys in the division.

The Lewis he faced hadn't fought in over a year, was aging, and not in good shape.

** OK, you made some good valid points about Vitali's style that few pick up on, yet fall short with the above.

Keep in mind that both the brothers were having as much trouble as Chris Byrd in making fights. Lewis wouldn't even mention them. They were the top 3challengers to Lewis at the close of the 90s opening up the new millennium. Maybe Wlad and Byrd not the top WBC rated challengers, but that's a different kettle of fish. I'm talking consensus boxrec/ring/and ********* type ratings.

Vitali was out 8 months as the WBC #1 contender waiting on Lewis to get off his pot. Lewis had an optional defense lined up against Kirk Johnson, but what he really wanted was the lucrative Tyson rematch which was going to be promoted by Tyson being on the undercard against Boswell. Tyson pulls out late, Vitali agrees to be his replacement hoping to promote his opportunity, then Johnson is hurt and pulls out, and with only a couple of weeks before the fight, Vitali agrees to what he feels is his only shot against Lewis who seems primed to retire without fighting him.

It's a fact for all you Jacks that Lewis had a full 2 month training camp and some additional training for a week or two a month before his official training camp. Yeah, he comes in at a career high, but had been gaining weight as all heavies do on a steady basis, and his six fights before, he'd averaged around 249-250 lbs, so 7 extra lbs is nothing for a man that size. That's about what my weight fluctuates as on a daily or weekly basis as a smaller man.

Yes, Lewis was entering that declining age, yet had pitched his two best masterclasses ever against Rahman in the rematch and Tyson with tons of plaudits. If anything, Vitali was the one disadvantaged with short notice on training and having to keep his schedule open in case the rumoured bout became reality. Sure, Lewis chose to be inactive for a year, and Vitali was forced out 8 months to hold on the the hints being dropped that Lewis might fight him soon.

OK, he lost the Lewis bout that he was winning do to no fault of his own yet got most of the plaudits. He lost the battle, won the war, becoming The Man who drove Lewis into retirement. He fights Johnson in the title eliminator. What's a guy who's been ducked and maneuvered around most of his career do, turn down title opportunities? Johnson was a Ring top ten fighter at least.

Then he fights Sanders for the WBC title and family honour. Is he supposed to turn that down? Sanders had also cracked Ring's top ten. Then Williams because Dannyboy ruined his dream fight with Tyson. Williams was on the fringes of the 10 list if he hadn't cracked it. That's four consecutive Ring ranked fighters right there which includes the champion. Looks to me like Vitali stepped it up big time when given opportunity with a 3-1, 3 KO record.

He comes back after 4 years and beats the Ring #2 fighter who's been in the Ring top ten longer than any heavy, then he beats his mandatory who was Ring #9. So now we're up to 6 consecutive Ring ranked fighters with nary a Coopman, Leon, London, Frank, Marvis, Cobb, Ocasio, ect mixed in for easy fare. 5-1, 5 KO.

Look, Vitali has weaknesses like all fighters, but I don't see how being in denial over the true nature of his record enhances the life of a true boxing fan.

I'll be addressing his fate against IBRO top 20 in my follow up post.

[LondonRingRules]

Here's IBRO top 20. Who has a chance to beat Vitali in the bunch?

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Joe Louis: Joe a history of beating huge men in Carnera, Buddy Baer who is Vitali sized, and Simon. Knocked em all out. Primo gives him a fine battle. Simon big, slow and clumsy, and Buddy gave away his height and reach by going inside like he was 5-10 instead of 6-6. Joe one of the few with a more than fair chance.

Muhammad Ali: Ali another one with a fair chance. No history of big men save Terrell and Foreman, a couple sizes below Vitali. Still, with Ali talent and movement, I don't give the comeback Ali much chance, the prime Ali is in the game.

Jack Johnson: Those who know me know JJ not ranked highly. Good showing against Willard, but Vitali a better, more active boxer who controls space better than Willard did.

Jack Dempsey: Jack another one with a stellar record against big men. With his quick style which included brutal body work inside, he has one of the best chances.

Rocky Marciano: Love the Rock like life itself, but sorry......

Larry Holmes: Larry managed to have his prototype Bowe/Golota fight against Cooney. Vitali not a low blower. Big Pants Lar shut down and out.

James J. Jeffries: Love Jeff more than the Rock, but his proto-primative style dooms him here.

George Foreman: No real history against big men, but he's a smallish big man and smashed up a pretty decent big boy against Briggs in George's last fight. Size, strength, and chin sees Big George with a fair chance here.

Sonny Liston: No history against big men. A bully I feel would be intimdated. Has the skills and natural attributes to have a fair chance, but who'd really chance a bet for Liston?

Joe Frazier: Joe also with a fair chance because of his waterbug style hard to time. Giving away a solid 45lbs of muscle with no history against big men save Mathis whom he did a number on, Joe in the running as a dark horse

Gene Tunney: Clever guy, but a boxer. Nobody his size to outbox Vitali.

Lennox Lewis: Already beat Vitali, but it was Vitali who showed the class over Lewis: Figure the results to go up and down as matched in a sequential fashion through their careers.

Mike Tyson: Give Iron Mike the best chance on natural attributes, but his bully mentality may fail him here. Still, he's in the running big time.

Evander Holyfield: Sorry, one of my favs in the day, but the guy had massive troubles against big men. Figure Vitali KOs him in a terrible beatdown.

Sam Langford: Sam THE MAN, but giving up over a foot in height and reach as well as 75 lbs of body weight, well, A TALL ORDER comes to mind. Not a fair chance for Sam, but a SAM chance for Sam. Don't ever count Sam Langford out of ANY fight.

Jersey Joe Walcott: Plenty of prayers to be said over JJ.

Ezzard Charles: Brilliant fighter/Warrior, but not any kind of fair matchup.

Harry Wills: Would be dwarfed and armed with a somewhat weak chin. Nope.

James J. Corbett: Nope

Bob Fitzsimmons: Nope.

So, that's Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Sam Langford, 8 fighters total that I give a chance to beat Vitali.

I have opinions as to who would win against whom, but that's not really the point of the exercise. We can't prove who can beat who, but we can establish a stylistic and natural attributes baseline of heavies who could compete today.

I might add, in spite of a somewhat clumsy fight against the awkward Gomez, Vitali at age 37 is likely the best he's ever been and a damn sight better than any old man heavy not named Big George. Be interesting to see how he closes his career.

I haven't been impressed much with the way the brothers appear to be double teaming young Haye, though Haye is a bit of a numpty, and reports that Vitali tried some funny business with the ring size in the Gomez fight. Now, that is disturbing, but this being boxing, have no idea of the truth of the matter

Great time to be a boxing fan as long as your high waders are intact, and we shall see what we shall see come to pass, so cheerio all............

[T.Horton]

the ones in bold would all beat Vitali in my view

size isnt everything, vitali is very slow like all men that size and its not like he automatically storms over opponents, chris byrd beat him as did an old lewis, he isnt a superhuman monster, hes just big and tough with a solid chin/punch and ok skills

I think Tyson would have creamed him.