Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?

[�ringer]

** Opinions, opinions gentlemen, my kingdom for another opinion to tithe my royal lineage.

I would point out that the historical record supports very few of your choices. The Bringer, whether by happy accident or well considered choice
has made the most credible grouping of the responses thus far.

Notice how he couches his language such that his picks are given solid chances of victory, acknowledgement of the significant talents and considerable natural attributes of the Kbros.

Louis more particularly has an excellent track record against prime or near prime giants, Lewis next, then Dempsey. Ali and Frazier lag a bit behind these two, their eras with fewer giant type contenders of the past. Ali did beat a smallish giant in Foreman and Wepner, and I guess Bugner, and Frazier has prime undefeated Mathis and also Bugner.

Unfortunately, young Bowe's management feared him being exposed against big sluggers, so I wouldn't qualify him as having any history of superiority over big men seeing how the only prime big man he met not only outboxed him easily, but beat the bejibberjabbers out of him and into retirement in what should have been his physical prime. Many close to him claimed he began showing signs of dementia around this time. Given the lack of significant comp prior to Golota save for the smallish Holy, I cannot support that this guy was in the class of the great champions who stalked and terrorized the division in the past.

I would also point out that era giants Willard and Primo would also have a decent chance at the Kbros. Both very underrated for boxing skills and using their size, and both clearly as big, or even stronger as in Primo's case. I put Big George in this grouping, the baby of a big bunch. He did beat Wepner early in his career, and though he lost a travesty against Briggs, George blasted him around the ring and had him running for dear life.

There are those upset if Holy is not picked, but only Vitali has any history of losing to a guy his size, and that on injury in a fight Vitali was pitching near a shut out in late and easily could have coasted in for a win. He understands now he made a mistake in retiring. It can be argued that Holy beat Douglas, Bowe, and Big George, true enough, so I won't argue with anyone wanting to include him, but Douglas was never in training much less ever in the fight and Holy was shipped major damage by Bowe and George, not the blueprint on how to beat vastly bigger, stronger fighters.

I'd could include Tunney for his boxing and Holy for his toughness in as darkhorse selections, but wouldn't wager a wooden nickel on the result.

Louis I would give the best chance at beating Vitali, as you mentioned, he not only beat giants like Baer, Simon, and Carnera : He knocked them out. Carnera hit the deck three times, and Simon topped that, tumbling to the mat 4 times. Abe paid gravely for giving up his height in that one.

Behind Louis as the #1 seed I would tap Dempsey. Dempsey's record against the giants of his time holds up pretty well, with knockout wins over giants of his time like Fulton and Willard.

At # 3 I would have either Lewis, or Frazier. I'm really not sure which one. Smokin' Joe's record against big men isn't as good as Louis' or Dempsey's, but I like him as a dark horse because of his tenacity. Also, stylistically I think he could give Vitali problems because he's not given nearly enough credit for slipping past the jab and making inroads on his opponet.

I like his chances if he could slip inside on Vitali, because Vitali relies so heavily on the jab.

Lewis would probably be #4. I think he could win a very close, technical decision over Vitali. I don't think that even a prime Lewis would go in against Klitschko looking for any sort of stoppage or knockout. Lewis was a far more technical fighter and was content to win on points for the most part.


Ali I place at #5. Because he's never faced an opponet the size of Klitschko. Sure Foreman and Terrell were big, as you noted, but they were not in line with someone like either Klitschko brother. Frankly, I think Ali would be puzzled by a giant who fights in a technical manner. He's more used to come forward, brawling style big men like a Frazier, or a Foreman.

He would really have to adjust in order to win it.

At #6 I would place Foreman. He was a very slow, wide puncher. It would be a strange fight to watch unfold, because Klitschko would be so determined to keep George at bay (for obvious reasons), and George would be so determined to get inside (again, for obvious reasons).

I have reservations about Foreman being able to close the distance, given Klitschko's superb jab. And if he couldn't close that distance, he'd lose the fight. Still, he was a heavy handed son of a *****, and he always has that puncher's chance. Which is why I included him on my list of picks.

And you may very well be right about Rid**** Bowe. I would love to have seen those 2 scrap, regardless of the outcome.

[T.Horton]

Vitali has a long body and I know that when i was fighting i used to love to get inside and chop down taller guys. yea, yea, he's able to use his reach and he gets away with pulling his head back (mainly because he has never fought a great fighter with similar statistics as him who was in their prime. the one great fighter that he did face was lennox who was on his last legs (or so it could be said) and lennox was getting to him and really wearing him down. it started with the body attacking and how often did lennox ever go to the body?

[T.Horton]

duh. the point that i was trying to make is that most of the top twenty beat him in my opinion. including some of the smaller cuties like ezzard charles and joe walcott. hell. feather fisted chris byrd started rocking vitali near the end.

[StarshipTrooper]

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet

[paul750]

Larry Holmes is the first person who comes to mind. I just can't see Klitschko dealing with that jab. Lewis has to be another one. Klitschko was in his prime and Lewis had one foot in retirement. It doesn't matter how much people talk about that fight, the fact remains that it was the best version of Klitschko versus a Lewis who had accomplished what he wanted. Lewis would have busted him up again, had the fight taken place two years before it did and a rematch followed. It wasn't a freak cut, it was multiple cuts and a busted lip etc. It would have happened again.

Bowe should certainly be mentioned, as should Tyson. I think Holyfield's intensity and rough way of fighting would have given Klitschko problems, as long as the Real Deal didn't fight Klitschko's fight. Obviously these are just the modern heavyweights I'm mentioning. How about throwing Ray Mercer in there. He could take a lot of punishment and when he used the jab well he almost beat Lewis. Wladimir Klitschko actually fought Mercer, but it was a Mercer past his prime.

[T.Horton]

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet

pre-freakin'-cisely!

[Chase8400]

Joe Louis: Joe a history of beating huge men in Carnera, Buddy Baer who is Vitali sized, and Simon. Knocked em all out. Primo gives him a fine battle. Simon big, slow and clumsy, and Buddy gave away his height and reach by going inside like he was 5-10 instead of 6-................................

................................Great time to be a boxing fan as long as your high waders are intact, and we shall see what we shall see come to pass, so cheerio all............

Damn, I didn't know you could lay it down like that. Outstanding posts here. Very unbiased approach that I feel a good % of the members here can appreciate. Sprinkle Sprinkle.

P.S. We need more posters here like you. Keep up the good work. You seem very boxing-literate.

[BattlingNelson]

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet

What's you take on Vitali's chances against the fighters LRR mentioned Poet?

[Chase8400]

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet

LOL. If you think everyone on the list beats Vitali, you're out of your right mind.

While I entertain that half of the list has a good chance, most of the smallish guys such as Dempsey and Fitsimmons just don't stand a chance. Vitali has the size advantage of Lennox Lewis, the chin of Marciano and the punch placement/accuracy of Joe Lewis. He's no pushover as you suggest.

His physical advantages cannot be ignored when placing him against the ATG's. If he was placed in the ring with anyone on this list, it's hard to imagine anybody beating him easily. Least of all being the smaller guys.

Nice thread in general. I've got my opinion on the whole deal but don't have the time to lay it down. I'll hold my peace..............for now.

[Chase8400]

Larry Holmes is the first person who comes to mind. I just can't see Klitschko dealing with that jab. Lewis has to be another one. Klitschko was in his prime and Lewis had one foot in retirement. It doesn't matter how much people talk about that fight, the fact remains that it was the best version of Klitschko versus a Lewis who had accomplished what he wanted. Lewis would have busted him up again, had the fight taken place two years before it did and a rematch followed. It wasn't a freak cut, it was multiple cuts and a busted lip etc. It would have happened again.

Bowe should certainly be mentioned, as should Tyson. I think Holyfield's intensity and rough way of fighting would have given Klitschko problems, as long as the Real Deal didn't fight Klitschko's fight. Obviously these are just the modern heavyweights I'm mentioning. How about throwing Ray Mercer in there. He could take a lot of punishment and when he used the jab well he almost beat Lewis. Wladimir Klitschko actually fought Mercer, but it was a Mercer past his prime.

I suppose all the good Klitschko wins were against 'past their prime' fighters in some way or another , huh?

Was Gomez past his prime? Not before the fight, but now he is huh?

Like Lennox Lewis. Lennox showed no signs before or during the fight with Vitali that indicated him being past anything. He was throwing hard and accurate punches from start to finish in the VK fight. He was just getting beaten by a better fighter that night. Just Like Kostya Tszyu did aginst Hatton. But since they elected to not fight after those bouts, they were all washed up and ready to retire before the fight, etc. etc. etc.....

I call BS and I'm sure allot of other people do. Lennox had never looked better than he had against Tyson. I refuse to believe that he was less than himself against Klitschko.

P.S. I happen to think that Wlad has a better jab and right hand than Lewis too. He is just not as fluid as Lennox was and doesn't throw the uppercut nearly as well.