What Were Harry Wills' Best Wins?

[travestyny]

Love the job you guys have done in the Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey threads. So let's keep it going.

I think this is an easy one, though. What were Harry Wills' best wins?

I think we'd likely all agree that Sam Langford would be on the top of this list. What's interesting is the number of times Boxrec claims Wills gave Langford a beating. What I like is that Wills wasn't afraid to step up to Langford very early in his career.

We'd also have to mention Sam McVey, Kid Norfolk, Joe Jeannette.

Quite impressive. Would you guys add any others?

[billeau2]

Love the job you guys have done in the Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey threads. So let's keep it going.

I think this is an easy one, though. What were Harry Wills' best wins?

I think we'd likely all agree that Sam Langford would be on the top of this list. What's interesting is the number of times Boxrec claims Wills gave Langford a beating. What I like is that Wills wasn't afraid to step up to Langford very early in his career.

We'd also have to mention Sam McVey, Kid Norfolk, Joe Jeannette.

Quite impressive. Would you guys add any others?

Sam Mcvay was a big, strong heavyweight. Real strength, useful strength can be really hard to overcome. Mcvay had more skill than Firpo imo. I think beating Mcvay was essential to showing that Wills could fight a guy with skills and a lot of strength.

I look at McVay as a hidden treasure chest when it comes to legitimizing the truimpherate of McVay, jeanette, and langford because only he among them was a big strong heavy weight, even if he lacked the polish of the other two.


Gunboat Smith may have been in his twilight when he fought Wills, but was one of those sensational fighters that fought many great fighters including Grebb, Carpentier, etc... and Wills beat him. This was a somewhat unheralded achievement that Wills deserves more credit for.

[travestyny]

Sam Mcvay was a big, strong heavyweight. Real strength, useful strength can be really hard to overcome. Mcvay had more skill than Firpo imo. I think beating Mcvay was essential to showing that Wills could fight a guy with skills and a lot of strength.

I look at McVay as a hidden treasure chest when it comes to legitimizing the truimpherate of McVay, jeanette, and langford because only he among them was a big strong heavy weight, even if he lacked the polish of the other two.


Gunboat Smith may have been in his twilight when he fought Wills, but was one of those sensational fighters that fought many great fighters including Grebb, Carpentier, etc... and Wills beat him. This was a somewhat unheralded achievement that Wills deserves more credit for.

When I was reviewing his record, the Gunboat Smith bout definitely caught my eye. They were close in age, but Smith had a lot of fights on him. The KO1 was good work by Wills. Boxrec says he landed the only 6 punches of the fight.

I'd like to learn more about McVey. I remember looking into his "big fight" with some martial arts expert that was going around challenging people and fooling them that he was really tough. I made a thread about it that I can't find right now, but I remember Sam Langford scared the shlt out of McVey by saying, "Lord almighty, Sambo, he'll snap youse bones like matches." And Sam mumbled something like, "Lord, help me."

Of course Sam beat the guy easily. Also, something I found out recently was that Sam McVey fought Jack Johnson in an exhibition about 2 days before JJ's Willard fight. Johnson was warned not to take the fight because he could be hurt before the big fight, but he did it anyway. Apparently it wasn't much, but understandably so. JJohnson clowning and smiling while McVey got the better of him. Johnson's poor performance is what convinced many that he wasn't in shape and that Willard would beat him, making Willard the favorite. Willard went on record saying youth will beat age and that JJohnson can't fight over so many rounds anymore and planned to let him wear himself out before ending it, and that's exactly how it went.

McVey was actually in Jack Johnson's corner for the Willard fight. There was speculation that after the bout, if Johnson won, he would retire and give McVey the title.

[billeau2]

When I was reviewing his record, the Gunboat Smith bout definitely caught my eye. They were close in age, but Smith had a lot of fights on him. The KO1 was good work by Wills. Boxrec says he landed the only 6 punches of the fight.

I'd like to learn more about McVey. I remember looking into his "big fight" with some martial arts expert that was going around challenging people and fooling them that he was really tough. I made a thread about it that I can't find right now, but I remember Sam Langford scared the shlt out of McVey by saying, "Lord almighty, Sambo, he'll snap youse bones like matches." And Sam mumbled something like, "Lord, help me."

Of course Sam beat the guy easily. Also, something I found out recently was that Sam McVey fought Jack Johnson in an exhibition about 2 days before JJ's Willard fight. Johnson was warned not to take the fight because he could be hurt before the big fight, but he did it anyway. Apparently it wasn't much, but understandably so. JJohnson clowning and smiling while McVey got the better of him. Johnson's poor performance is what convinced many that he wasn't in shape and that Willard would beat him, making Willard the favorite. Willard went on record saying youth will beat age and that JJohnson can't fight over so many rounds anymore and planned to let him wear himself out before ending it, and that's exactly how it went.

McVey was actually in Jack Johnson's corner for the Willard fight. There was speculation that after the bout, if Johnson won, he would retire and give McVey the title.

Yeah Mcvay did fight a martial artist, probably a Ju Jitsu player. These matches were fairly common in Hawai, brazil and occasionally in the other states. And allegedlly he won easily and quickly. Interesting aside, it is rumored that Johnson was taught a lesson by a Judo player, though I do not know if this is true. I don't think so because at this time Judo was in its infancy and if anything was here from japan it would be Ju Jitsu. Now it is possible they got them mixed up because Judo comes from Ju Jutsu.

McVey was a certain type of strong... Probably along the lines of Jeffries. Johnson was a guy who had no problem fighting to the level of his competition, though I could see McVey being a lot to handle. Willard was big and strong and basically had to just make sure Johnson was not motivated lol. But from accounts it does seem Johnson knew early on in the bought he should have trained more... There were reports he had his wife leave the ring knowing he was fading.

Unfortunately all these reports were alleged. I might do a search and see if I can find any info on the judo match mentioned as a possible occurance above. Johnson was a really well trained grappler and might conceviably give a good account against a Ju Jitsu man...

Well... found this on McVey, nothing on Johnson.

[travestyny]

Yeah Mcvay did fight a martial artist, probably a Ju Jitsu player. These matches were fairly common in Hawai, brazil and occasionally in the other states. And allegedlly he won easily and quickly. Interesting aside, it is rumored that Johnson was taught a lesson by a Judo player, though I do not know if this is true. I don't think so because at this time Judo was in its infancy and if anything was here from japan it would be Ju Jitsu. Now it is possible they got them mixed up because Judo comes from Ju Jutsu.

McVey was a certain type of strong... Probably along the lines of Jeffries. Johnson was a guy who had no problem fighting to the level of his competition, though I could see McVey being a lot to handle. Willard was big and strong and basically had to just make sure Johnson was not motivated lol. But from accounts it does seem Johnson knew early on in the bought he should have trained more... There were reports he had his wife leave the ring knowing he was fading.

Unfortunately all these reports were alleged. I might do a search and see if I can find any info on the judo match mentioned as a possible occurance above. Johnson was a really well trained grappler and might conceviably give a good account against a Ju Jitsu man...

You are right. I found and bumped the thread. There were fights McVey had with two Ju Jitsu artists!

Definitely, I could see JJohnson using his grapplying skills in there. Would be very interesting.

As for the Willard fight, I think you're right. Everyone knew he wasn't conditioned to go the distance, and it was obvious that he was going to try to get Willard out of there quickly. Willard was smart in his approach. He lost all of the first 13 rounds or so I think it went..but he wasn't exactly trying to win them I would imagine. Just waiting for Jack to wear down.

[Dr. Z]

Wills best wins are Langford and McVey,

I have seen Willis on film 3 times, and he disappoints in each appearance.

Firpo, Madden, and Uzcdun. He's not as powerful or quick a you night think.

On Wills, he was risk averse too. He declined meeting fellow black contender George Godfrey several times and said no thanks to a match with Gene Tunney. While this doesn't absolve Dempsey for never giving Wills a shot, Wills was risk adverse too.

[travestyny]

Wills best wins are Langford and McVey,

I have seen Willis on film 3 times, and he disappoints in each appearance.

Firpo, Madden, and Uzcdun. He's not as powerful or quick a you night think.

On Wills, he was risk averse too. He declined meeting fellow black contender George Godfrey several times and said no thanks to a match with Gene Tunney. While this doesn't absolve Dempsey for never giving Wills a shot, Wills was risk adverse too.

Come on, bruh. How many minutes of the Firpo fight did you see?

If you have these full fights, post them up, because I've only managed to see edited pieces of two rounds against Firpo. In fact, I remember these three fights, along with training footage, all being packaged into 11 minutes. And mind you, Wills was 34-37 in these fights.

And we already know that Wills was busy demanding his title shot instead of entertaining more elimination matches. He already participated in one elimination bout and won, and was still sidestepped by Dempsey.

I wouldn't say he was risk adverse. I'd say he felt entitled to his shot for the championship.



If you go back and look at what was happening at the time, there were beginning to be some certain names popping up a lot when Godfrey came on the scene in about 1924. Firpo was the fighter that came up a lot and was being considered for a rematch with Dempsey, and that explains why Wills chose him, and got the win. He thought that would make it clear yet again that he deserves his shot, but still he didn't get it. There was also Jack Renault who beat Godfrey in '24 and in the same month Wills publicly stated he wanted to fight him, but said he thought Renault wouldn't want to fight him. There was Charles Weinart who beat another name that pops up a lot who was supposed to be on the same track as Firpo, Quintin Rojas, and also beat Firpo, and was coming off two wins against Sharkey, one immediately before Wills fought Weinart and beat him. The fight with Weinart was part of some sort of series in New York where the winner was supposed by promoters to be the next up for Dempsey.

All of these names were popping up. Some of which Wills took out, some of which were taken out by Wills victims, yet Wills was still there waiting for his title shot.

[Marchegiano]

I am not doing research for these, though, I probably should. So, off the cuff and from memory this is how I feel it breaks down.


Norfolk - p4p king of the era - colored champion

Langford - Or maybe he is the p4p king - colored champion

McVea - Second Sam has an argument for p4p - colored champion

Jeanette - Still a badass HW - colored champion

Clark - Another p4p great - colored champion

Firpo - A good win, might should be lower actually but was a solid contender with good wins. - SA champion

Tate - Same as Firpo. I may be overrating him, but, even if I am it's not like Tate was bad. - colored champion

Denver - Solid contender for any man of the era even if he was aging - colored champion

Meehan - Solid contender, could come to win or just come - PC champion

Dewey - Decent fighter of the era, Dewey's one of them who is more dangerous than his record would have you believe. Not much of a boxer though, probably should have him lower but when Wills fought him Wills was a pup.

Lester - Whooped Dempsey, not the greatest fighter but he is the one black man Dempsey fought and Dempsey lost that fight.

Battling - Drew Johnson, seemed happy to do a favor for anyone afterward and was only a hit and miss contender prior, but we was ranked high in Europe because he went to Europe and won. He earned his title shot the same way Pulev has today. Maybe we don't like the names he took out but he did take out the names the IBU gave him then took a draw from Jack...even if it is suspect.

Gunboat - Solid as **** contender, I just felt he was old by then

Cotton - Not the greatest rivalry to have but Cotton was a pretty good little fighter. Despite his being used up by every colored champion who outweighed him Cotton still managed to pick up decent wins here and there.

Fulton - got passed around like a rag doll, but there's a reason everyone fought him

Miller - By all accounts pretty much just a can, but, Miller has these oddly good wins here and there.

Everett - The end of a career that seemed to start right and went down quick. Everett's hardly worth mention really. some kind of champion though if I remember right.






So, again, ranking wise grain of salt, but the names I do believe are solid. I don't think Wills ever fought Carpentier, but, even if he did, **** Carpentier.

[travestyny]

I am not doing research for these, though, I probably should. So, off the cuff and from memory this is how I feel it breaks down.


Norfolk - p4p king of the era - colored champion

Langford - Or maybe he is the p4p king - colored champion

McVea - Second Sam has an argument for p4p - colored champion

Jeanette - Still a badass HW - colored champion

Clark - Another p4p great - colored champion

Firpo - A good win, might should be lower actually but was a solid contender with good wins. - SA champion

Tate - Same as Firpo. I may be overrating him, but, even if I am it's not like Tate was bad. - colored champion

Denver - Solid contender for any man of the era even if he was aging - colored champion

Meehan - Solid contender, could come to win or just come - PC champion

Dewey - Decent fighter of the era, Dewey's one of them who is more dangerous than his record would have you believe. Not much of a boxer though, probably should have him lower but when Wills fought him Wills was a pup.

Lester - Whooped Dempsey, not the greatest fighter but he is the one black man Dempsey fought and Dempsey lost that fight.

Battling - Drew Johnson, seemed happy to do a favor for anyone afterward and was only a hit and miss contender prior, but we was ranked high in Europe because he went to Europe and won. He earned his title shot the same way Pulev has today. Maybe we don't like the names he took out but he did take out the names the IBU gave him then took a draw from Jack...even if it is suspect.

Gunboat - Solid as **** contender, I just felt he was old by then

Cotton - Not the greatest rivalry to have but Cotton was a pretty good little fighter. Despite his being used up by every colored champion who outweighed him Cotton still managed to pick up decent wins here and there.

Fulton - got passed around like a rag doll, but there's a reason everyone fought him

Miller - By all accounts pretty much just a can, but, Miller has these oddly good wins here and there.

Everett - The end of a career that seemed to start right and went down quick. Everett's hardly worth mention really. some kind of champion though if I remember right.






So, again, ranking wise grain of salt, but the names I do believe are solid. I don't think Wills ever fought Carpentier, but, even if he did, **** Carpentier.

lol. You really hate Carpentier, huh?


Good stuff.

My favorite story about Jim Johnson is that he was going around Europe claiming he was Jack Johnson, and people believed him

As for Tate, a Dempsey sparring partner, much is made about Dempsey being too green to face Langford when initially offered the fight in 1916. Tate fought Langford at the same stage in his career as Dempsey was when he was offered that fight, and came away with a draw.

[Marchegiano]

lol. You really hate Carpentier, huh?


Good stuff.

My favorite story about Jim Johnson is that he was going around Europe claiming he was Jack Johnson, and people believed him

As for Tate, a Dempsey sparring partner, much is made about Dempsey being too green to face Langford when initially offered the fight in 1916. Tate fought Langford at the same stage in his career as Dempsey was when he was offered that fight, and came away with a draw.

Georges was a french/euro hypejob and little else.

I hate the fact that two guys who hardly actually did anything got so much fanfare that today they still use the hype alone as justification for their greatness. Georges resume reads like the rest of the white champions of the JJ era; ****.