Break them down for me. Which great fighters did he fight beat at their best? Of those fights were they matched up closely in terms of size or experience?
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I like that he beat the top black fighters of his days as well as the white ones.
Unlike others who found a way to never fight a dangerous black fighter in their whole career. -
Burns is a massively underrated HW champion. I think he's an ATG and Johnson caught him right in his prime. It's a very good win.
Jeanette, I believe when Johnson fought them in abouts 04 06 Jeanette was doing the best of the colored ranked fighters outside of Johnson.
McVea - Second to Jeanette
Langford took some Ls in this period, from my memory anyway, but he comes back later strong and picks up Ws over the other two.
Fitzs was definitely on his way out of the game, but, he is the x2 HW champion p4p atg Fitzsimmons we're talking about. A very good win to earn the honor of fighting Burns.
Martin was a great colored HW champion.
Childs was an excellent HW/colored HW champion.
Butler was King of the MWs after all. Very good win.
Haynes. Klon***e isn't a great fighter like Burns but for Johnson's fourth fight on record that's a damn impressive scalp. Klon***e wasn't old either, he was a peer. The "black" HW champion was never hard work for Johnson though.
Kaufman is a very respectable win. Maybe should be higher on my list. Hardly lost before he fought Johnson and it's not for lack of fighting talent. Obrien, Jim Johnson, Fireman, Kaufman was pretty good when Johnson got him.
Ketchel was a good title defense
Jeffries may have been well into retirement, but, Jim Jeffries might have been the greatest HW of all time too. It's not a bad win, just can't rank it too high given a prime Jeff most certainly would have given Johnson more fight.
Kennedy is an old goat from an earlier era if I remember him correct. He's a Jeffries' era contender. A solid leftover from the past.
Jeffords and Kennedy were hard for me to rank. I know Jeffords was a sparring partner for either Corbett or Jeffries, or, maybe both. A solid win for an aspiring Johnson.
Bearcat was never a soft target. Not the greatest win, but a solid one for an old man leaving the sport.
Ranking I could be swayed quite a bit, but, all these wins, when Johnson won them, are solid in my opinion.
Additional - I really like these threads. Reckon we keep them going with a new new ones here and there.
Last edited by Marchegiano; 12-05-2020, 01:27 PM.Comment
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The top? You mean like Jeannette with less than ten fights? Or McVea less than twenty? Langford who was much smaller and and inexperienced? Ketchel the middleweight? Washed up Fitzsimmons, or Jeffries coming off a six year retirement?Originally posted by ShoulderRoll View PostComment
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- -Lotta pablum.Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post
Haynes KOed JJ 1st meeting and drew the 2nd.
Joe Choynski KOed him before they were haul off to a Texas jail.
By your regrettable definitions, Berbick and Lar best wins are a sick, addled Ali.Comment
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Johnson drew the color line as soon as he could, or as soon as he had to, you might say. White customers wanted to see the championship contested for by a white man. Champ Johnny could not fight fellow dark 'uns and keep himself in pearl.
Most of his wins were good, for a man who fights everyone does not determine when his opponents are born. To be a dark 'un bashing the top white men in front of crowds of drunken whites in circa 1910, took real nerve, and Johnson was a billionaire of nerve, indomitable.
The greatest win was still Jeff, though the farmer was past peak and retired. Jeff was an undefeated champ, the greatest ever up to that point in the sport. People believed in him. If anybody could do it, he could. And that fight was the first fight I know of widely heralded as "The Fight Of The Century."
In an era of natural strongmen yet working farms and mines and blacksmith shops, Jefferies had legendary strength. It was a strength ballyhooed in news articles over and over again.
Johnson, always ready to do his part to promote a fight, shockingly promised reporters to pin Jeff's powerful arms as easily as a lad's. It was a promise he made good on, as seen in the films. Several times he pins Jeff's arms behind his back like a boy.
There is no guarantee any other dark 'uns could have whipped Jeff that day, though they may have. But it was Johnny who settled the issue and not them. The best dark 'un whipped the best light 'un that day for sure. It was a first in almost every way. Those many reasons are why it is his greatest fight IMO. There were race riots for days afterwards, so there was a little something for everyone.Comment
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Choynski mentored Johnson... Hell of a fighter by all accounts.Originally posted by QueensburyRules View PostComment
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Burns stood 5'7 1/2 inches tall and weighed a listed 168 pounds. IT was Johnson best glided performance, but I think lots of others would have beaten Bruns at that time if given the chance, some of which sooner ( Langford or McVey )
When judging Johnson, he beat the very green, small or old yet struggled vs. men in their prime that he was matched with.
Examples.
He's 0-1-2 vs Hank Griffin, a talented black fighter.
He Ko;d Cold vs Choysnki
And
He lost to Hart in a high stakes match with the winner billed to face Jeffries. When Hart won Jeffries said he was ready for Hart, the public did not want to pay for what they saw as a mis-match.
Fight reports Hart vs Johnson:
The Call (San Francisco)- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
Marvin Hart matched his gameness against the cleverness of Jack Johnson in Woodward's Pavillion last night, and at the end of twenty rounds of fierce fighting Referee Alex Greggains gave an entirely just decision in favor of Hart. He was the aggressor throughout, and there was never an instant that he was not trying in an awkward style to land on the elusive negro.
San Francisco Chronicle- 1905 Mar 29 (page 8)
To put the thing briefly the way it appeared to a man who had not interest one way or the other—only a desire to see fair play and to have the better fighter win—on the score of aggressiveness Hart was entitled to the verdict. On any other score Johnson should have been the favored one. This is a thing that will be argued on the street corners for days
The San Francisco Examiner- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
PLUCK AND AWKWARDNESS BETTER THAN A MIXTURE OF CLEVERNESS AND COWARDICE
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BY W. W. NAUGHTON
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It would be ridiculous to say that Hart is a better ringster than Johnson. If Johnson were only as stout hearted as the man from Louisville the chances are the negro would dispose of his opponent of last night in ten rounds.
Johnson did his best work with a straight left. He also bruised the side of Hart's face with right crosses. Hart, although anything but a neat boxer, had an awkwardly clever way of stopping Johnson's uppercuts.
Hart scored his biggest success with a heart punch. He reached Johnson's ribs with this blow a number of times in every round. He also clouted Johnson on temple and jaw with right swings.
The San Francisco Examiner- 1905 Mar 29 (page 10)
By Jabez White.
Hart was the aggressor all the way and the referee could do nothing but give him all the glory. The big fellows clinch too much, something you very seldom see across the pond.
Oakland Tribune- 1905 Mar 29 (page 6)
Clearly showing himself strong on point, Johnson lack the grit and aggressiveness of Hart and this lost him the fight, for previous to entering the ring the big fellow had been warned by Referee Greggains that should the battle go the full twenty round he would give the verdict to fighter who was the most aggressive—in other made the fight.
And on this line Hart fully earned the long end of the purse. He was after the black man at all times except when sent back by the colored champion's hooks and jabs. Had the decision been given on points scored by clean hitting, blocking and punishment administered, then Johnson would have won by a country mile.Comment
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Good post.Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
Jack Johnson's best wins were over much smaller fighters who were either natural middleweights or had less than ten or twenty fights. He typically had a distinct size advantage.
The 3x he fought McVea, Sam had less than ten fights, yet Johnson gets a lot of credit for beating him. First time he fought Jeannette, Joe was 0-3, and he fought him 6x with less than twenty fights to his name. The last outing they had was a draw when Jeannette finally began to hit his stride and figure him out. Both he and McVea were denied a title shots once they gained more experience. Then there was MW Ketchel, old Jeffries, and no-hopers Tony Ross, Al Kaufman and the long string of never-was opponents after the Willard KO loss.
Very similar advantages were relevant to Wills success too. Harry Wills towered over most of his opponents at nearly 6'3" and 220+. He had physical advantages over most of his opponents who he could smother, clinch, and wrestle his way to victory. A 5'7" Langford couldn't overcome the size difference despite being a superior boxer. Jeannette and McVea were each closer to LHW at 5'10" 180. Fought no-hoper Jack Thompson 9x--a guy with a career record of 19-16-5. Bill Tate was a Dempsey sparring partner who he fought 5x, and Battling Jim Johnson 3x...the only black man to get a title shot from Jack Johnson, was 5'9" and not much more than a journeyman.Last edited by GhostofDempsey; 12-06-2020, 11:41 AM.Comment
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