Can you call this fight?

[GhostofDempsey]

Intriguing match up. Cerdan had an uncanny ability to work his way to the inside and grind. A tremendous chin and stamina to go all out each round. Burley was the master of distance. Being just on the outside of his opponents reach, while slipping and countering. Neither of them being KO’d outside of Cerdan’s injured shoulder.

They are equally matched in terms of skills and ability. Burley has a significant edge in resume. Multiple wins over Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Zivic, and wins over Moore and Lytell. Went the distance with Charles twice and Bivins.

I would have to give a slight edge to Burley—slick footwork, a crisp jab, angles, counterpunching and ability to adapt.

[billeau2]

A beautiful post laced with decadent pearls.

Unfortunately, it neglects one thing: this is all based off of him fighting Oakland Billy Smith. Definitely not the same as fighting Tony Zale.

Sure, Tony Zale wasn't a LHw, and his best years were behind him, but would you call Toney better than Jones based on his post-LHw career? How about Hopkins if we only had the Trinidad and Pavlik fights to work from?

I am not saying it's an unimpressive performance, nor was Smith some hack. But he was clearly still green - he'd lost 25% of his fights going into that match, and hadn't developed his now-famous punching repertoire.

Smith gets lots of love as a member of the Black Murderer's Row because of his epic KO of Harold Johnson; and, like Maxim, he fought everybody else (no one really pays attention to the results). But he's a clear example of how these guys were learning as they went; and while there was much to be achieved from experience, they really suffered for not having amateur careers or coming up on the East Coast.

Which leads me to Moore. Moore would prove better than Smith, but he wasn't much better when he met Burley. Moore's best years were still yet in the far distance. (Actually, I do believe he was still at his best, or only just past it, when he met Marciano).

Which leads me to the rumors regarding those who"dodged/ducked" Burley: A lot of it was timing:
- Armstrong really does appeared to have avoided all Ww contenders with a pulse. His career under Jolson was a giant publicity stunt. Not that he doesn't look stellar on film, but he, more than Louis, was fighting the bum-on-the-month club.
- Robinson might be guilty, but really it just seems that the timing wasn't right. THere certainly was no incentive for them to fight. If you want to argue that Robinson dodged opponents (such as members of the Black Murderer's Row), you probably have a strong argument, but Burley doesn't look like the guy you're after.
- Conn and Burley had very different trajectories: Conn hit the ground running, Burley took the scenic route through the amateurs. Burley seems to have peaked early, while Conn was a constant work in progress. Conn not wanting a fight w/ Burley (so long as he lacked a title) before hitting his stride at Light Heavyweight makes sense. But you can't really believe that people saw Conn bring it to Louis and thought Burley then had any business sharing the ring w/ Conn. For perspective: Aaron Pryor was a terrifying guy for amateurs like Leonard and Hearns, but you know they KILL him in their Professional prime.

I know...footage of one fight a legend does not make. and the objections you make regarding timing are valid. Regarding Conn, I don't see Burley fighting upwards at light heavy, certainly not at heavy. If they met at light heavy it would be like Floyd at Welter...where a guy (Floyd) who was stratified at 135 almost got his head taken off by Madanna a relatively average fighter with good hustle. Conn fought legit upwards from light heavy, not Charlie's best work. So different trajectories indeed.

There are fighters who I call "fighter's fighters." Guys like michael moore, Oliver McCall for example and Charlie Burley...Guys who never materialized as great fighters but who were legendary and spoken of as such by other fighters... Guys like Tommy Hearn talk about the presence of Moore at the Konk Gym. McCall allegedlly had Mike Tyson pissing on himself lol...


Then you see Moore put a decent outing together, like he did against Holly, and you catch a glimmer of what people saw... and then see him lose it all next rematch, and realize why Moore is not seen in the light as other great light heavies.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Intriguing match up. Cerdan had an uncanny ability to work his way to the inside and grind. A tremendous chin and stamina to go all out each round. Burley was the master of distance. Being just on the outside of his opponents reach, while slipping and countering. Neither of them being KO’d outside of Cerdan’s injured shoulder.

They are equally matched in terms of skills and ability. Burley has a significant edge in resume. Multiple wins over Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Zivic, and wins over Moore and Lytell. Went the distance with Charles twice and Bivins.

I would have to give a slight edge to Burley—slick footwork, a crisp jab, angles, counterpunching and ability to adapt.

those are all good points. What do you make of the wins Lytell and Williams scored over Burley?

I get it, there's no footage to really ground our opinions to. But I wonder if Williams and Lytell didn't beat Burley by the same means Cerdan would apply.

Williams and Lytell almost certainly beat LaMotta (no offense meant), but Cerdan definitely would have beaten the best version of LaMotta if hadn't injured his shoulder. I don't think THAT statement is over-played. That is one legend of Boxing that buy into. He's clearly gritting it out, one-handed, surviving Jake's best, even after the adrenaline level-out. That's a tough dude.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I know...footage of one fight a legend does not make. and the objections you make regarding timing are valid. Regarding Conn, I don't see Burley fighting upwards at light heavy, certainly not at heavy. If they met at light heavy it would be like Floyd at Welter...where a guy (Floyd) who was stratified at 135 almost got his head taken off by Madanna a relatively average fighter with good hustle. Conn fought legit upwards from light heavy, not Charlie's best work. So different trajectories indeed.

There are fighters who I call "fighter's fighters." Guys like michael moore, Oliver McCall for example and Charlie Burley...Guys who never materialized as great fighters but who were legendary and spoken of as such by other fighters... Guys like Tommy Hearn talk about the presence of Moore at the Konk Gym. McCall allegedlly had Mike Tyson pissing on himself lol...


Then you see Moore put a decent outing together, like he did against Holly, and you catch a glimmer of what people saw... and then see him lose it all next rematch, and realize why Moore is not seen in the light as other great light heavies.

Yeah Moorer broke my heart. I wasn't especially serious about Boxing at the time. But I always liked it, and I thought he would be our hometown hero. DIdn't work out that way. And it kinda killed my taste for the sport for a couple years.

I think Conn was very good even at Mw, but not terribly consistent. But I think he, like Cerdan and Robinson, depended a lot on charisma. Ray Leonard gets s h i t on for it, but he was the same way. Burley's minimalist, highly efficient approach robbed fighters of that. Unless you bullied him, you were probably going to look bad, win or lose.

We give Mayweather and Hopkins a hard time for that today, but really we're far more tolerant of it. Adelaide Byrd might be corrupt, but apparently she believed she could give Canelo every round. I don't wanna go off track, but I think that was a lot of what discouraged flashy fighters from fighting him.

I know I bring up Graham-Gavilan a lot. But anyone who scores those fights should see Graham winning. Close and competitive, but the better man is clear. Unfortunately, he's just Boxing. Gavilan on the other hand is making it fun. Effective? Sometimes. Exciting? Always.

Burley could very well smash Cerdan. I wouldn't bet on that. But I would bet that the dyanmo is muffled.

[GhostofDempsey]

those are all good points. What do you make of the wins Lytell and Williams scored over Burley?

I get it, there's no footage to really ground our opinions to. But I wonder if Williams and Lytell didn't beat Burley by the same means Cerdan would apply.

Williams and Lytell almost certainly beat LaMotta (no offense meant), but Cerdan definitely would have beaten the best version of LaMotta if hadn't injured his shoulder. I don't think THAT statement is over-played. That is one legend of Boxing that buy into. He's clearly gritting it out, one-handed, surviving Jake's best, even after the adrenaline level-out. That's a tough dude.

I think Burley found a home in measuring his opponents reach, tools, and abilities. He and Williams fought over a half dozen times, so it’s safe to say Williams was just as savvy and every bit as capable as Burley.

In 1942 Burley fought 15 times—5x versus Williams, 2x versus Charles and Lloyd Marshall. He was bound to suffer some losses from such a schedule, especially for a fighter who held a day job and didn’t have the luxury of being a full time fighter with a dedicated camp.

I know a lot of fans like to romanticize Burley, but I think there is merit in the admiration he receives from legitimate sources like Moore and Futch.

Cerdan was supposed to make his American debut against Burley, he refused, and we have to suspect he saw something in Burley that convinced him he wasn’t worth the risk.

[billeau2]

Yeah Moorer broke my heart. I wasn't especially serious about Boxing at the time. But I always liked it, and I thought he would be our hometown hero. DIdn't work out that way. And it kinda killed my taste for the sport for a couple years.

I think Conn was very good even at Mw, but not terribly consistent. But I think he, like Cerdan and Robinson, depended a lot on charisma. Ray Leonard gets s h i t on for it, but he was the same way. Burley's minimalist, highly efficient approach robbed fighters of that. Unless you bullied him, you were probably going to look bad, win or lose.

We give Mayweather and Hopkins a hard time for that today, but really we're far more tolerant of it. Adelaide Byrd might be corrupt, but apparently she believed she could give Canelo every round. I don't wanna go off track, but I think that was a lot of what discouraged flashy fighters from fighting him.

I know I bring up Graham-Gavilan a lot. But anyone who scores those fights should see Graham winning. Close and competitive, but the better man is clear. Unfortunately, he's just Boxing. Gavilan on the other hand is making it fun. Effective? Sometimes. Exciting? Always.

Burley could very well smash Cerdan. I wouldn't bet on that. But I would bet that the dyanmo is muffled.

When we speak of "judging" if we had people who had great eyes, integrity unshakable, no agendas... a magician would fool them as easily as anyone else because the hand is quicker than the eye. We know we don't have judges of this calibre, not even near.

For this reason I never look at decisions as the final word on what happened in a fight, speaking of close fights particularly where it went to the cards. So to look at a decision as being wrong based on one fighter being a crown pleaser, is not an unreasonable conclusion to reach.

Conn and Burley both came up in a town where boxing was gospel, Pittsburgh, which even today produces fighters like Spadafora. A good boxing town, places like Detroit, Brooklyn ny, etc... Seem to give the fighters the right start, what they become may be different in terms of approach, and level of charisma, etc, but they have the basics down.

Cerdan operated well at all ranges but liked to fight inside, I just don't see Charley allowing him to get there.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I think Burley found a home in measuring his opponents reach, tools, and abilities. He and Williams fought over a half dozen times, so it’s safe to say Williams was just as savvy and every bit as capable as Burley.

In 1942 Burley fought 15 times—5x versus Williams, 2x versus Charles and Lloyd Marshall. He was bound to suffer some losses from such a schedule, especially for a fighter who held a day job and didn’t have the luxury of being a full time fighter with a dedicated camp.

I know a lot of fans like to romanticize Burley, but I think there is merit in the admiration he receives from legitimate sources like Moore and Futch.

Cerdan was supposed to make his American debut against Burley, he refused, and we have to suspect he saw something in Burley that convinced him he wasn’t worth the risk.

Yeah, it's Futch's compliment, not Moore's, that sures it up for me.

Even trainers say ridiculous things. They're fallible, too. But for one of the absolute best trainers of all time to single-out Burley says a lot.

As much as Burley's personal life and schedule were problematic, the fact that he had such an au****ious start and that so many other fighters have had "better excuses" makes it difficult for me to dismiss his short-comings as comfortably as others do.

While I do believe he got the better of Williams, Williams does seem to have succeeded w/ his hand-speed. Maybe Cerdan wasn't as quick (how could we ever know?), but he certainly hit harder and pushed a higher pace.
Bivins, Charles, Lytell and Marshall were all Middleweights/very green when they met Burley. Even Moore was more seasoned and closer to his Light Heavyweight campaign than any of them. They all beat Burley by, apparently, pushing the pace.

These men were all very good fighters. But they had their *****. We have Bivins-Charles II on tape. Maybe these were fights which Burley simply took-off? Hubris, or a simple miscalculation caused him to sleep on some very talented, very hungry young men?

Or maybe you really could overwhelm him by applying the pressure? *That's why his style was abandoned for the more modern iterations.

I am not trying to change your mind. I haven't even made up my own. I just think there was a trend there.

And even if there were a trend, it's hard to know if Cerdan fits the mould to apply it. We really don't have much footage of the guys who beat Burley, and outside of your boy, LaMotta, they don't have any shared opposition.

[QueensburyRules]

Cerdan was supposed to make his American debut against Burley, he refused, and we have to suspect he saw something in Burley that convinced him he wasn’t worth the risk.

- -Cerdan wouldn't even know who Burley was like most fans wouldn't have known him, and the few that did felt more like being at a funeral than a boxing match.

He did know Robby and Jake and that was the plan with bukos $$$.

Keeping it real...

[GhostofDempsey]

- -Cerdan wouldn't even know who Burley was like most fans wouldn't have known him, and the few that did felt more like being at a funeral than a boxing match.

He did know Robby and Jake and that was the plan with bukos $$$.

Keeping it real...

So he knew Harold Green but not Burley?

[The Old LefHook]

Boxing people talk. Burley's reputation probably preceded him.