Why is there no fight footage of Harry Greb?

[ShoulderRoll]

- -Didn't provide any links for the resident naysayers though.

So sayeth Ellerbee Wannabee. Got any links to prove you even exist beyond the phantasy realm?

Terrible, garbage post. Thanks for contributing nothing of value as always.

[Rusty Tromboni]

"Did some collector....

"Is there a story about Sam Langford films being discovered?
Like when it took place and how it surfaced?"

I discovered the most recent batch which was nearly 20 years ago. Myself and four other people paid to have them transferred and preserved and agreed to keep them to ourselves as the cost was extremely high and if one of us let it out the others might get angry as their investment was sunk. We also didnt want to get into legal hot water as we didnt own the actual films and only agreed to pay the cost to get personal copies. One of the members showed it to a friend who eventually acquired a low quality copy and claimed that he discovered it. Thats one of the reasons I dont deal with anyone anymore.

Tremendous insights. Thank you.

What's your evaluation of Langford? Are you impressed by the his performances?
Do you think he was any where near as good as Greb?

We don't have footage of Greb, but based on your exhaustive research who do you think might be the fighter(s) who fought most similar to him?

Do you think that if footage were to emerge, he'd appear "primitive", or some how lacking compared to the generations of fighters who've come since?

[QueensburyRules]

Terrible, garbage post. Thanks for contributing nothing of value as always.

- -What's the Frequency, Kenneth?

Link? Saucy or Sausage?

[smeck]

Karl Hegman, and he was lying....

Never heard this but Jacobs told so many bull**** and conflicting stories....

Myself and four other people paid to have them transferred and preserved and agreed to keep them to ourselves as the cost was extremely high and if one of us let it out the others might get angry as their investment was sunk....

Excellent post, which for the layman clears up some obvious stuff (you can't record over film, silver nitrate was not an archival medium, etc.)

As for Karl & Jacobs, yes, outside the boxing world, collectors have encountered similar idiots. They horde stuff, brag, and even make up stories about what they DON'T have. VERY frustrating and annoying.

Sometimes when they finally drop dead, all their "goodies" end up for sale. (Sometimes. A few times some relative tosses it, and if there's no dumpster diver, they're gone forever).

Yes, another BIG frustration is converting obsolete media (2 inch video tape) or simply old media (16 mm transfer is costly). How do you deal with the expense?
I let some stuff go by on eBay 'cause I just couldn't afford the transfer price AND the asking price. No way did I think I could get the investment back.

Unless you're a wealthy collector, you'll try and hold on and hope PBS or BBC or somebody does a documentary and knows about you and meets your price. (You also have to be sure you own the rights!)

If you don't keep tight hold of your rarity, and give in to whining friends, somebody will copy and bootleg you, or give your rarity away free just to be a big shot. ("Thanks for the download, pal, I always wanted to see this!")

Hoping for things from Greb's time IS almost hopeless. Consider we don't even have some major feature films from that era (like Lon Chaney's "London After Midnight").

It's also a shame that fairly recent films can look like silent footage because of bad duping and careless loss of the masters. The recent HBO documentary on Ali had film of the Olympics and the Liston fight that was so fuzzy, they added sharp still photos so viewers could really see key moments.

Preservation of "entertainment" which is also HISTORY, has too often been a low priority. We see from the recent outrage over Universal Music Group losing valuable master recordings in a fire (everything from Al Jolson to Tom Petty) that vaults, fireproof storage, and other safety measures still aren't enforced.

While not having Greb footage may SEEM unimportant, consider how guys like Mike Tyson studied old fight films to improve technique, learn tricks, or simply be inspired by grit and determination. Too bad some owners had no determination to preserve their work, and some films are lost forever, or too full of grit to be watchable.

[klompton]

Excellent post, which for the layman clears up some obvious stuff (you can't record over film, silver nitrate was not an archival medium, etc.)

As for Karl & Jacobs, yes, outside the boxing world, collectors have encountered similar idiots. They horde stuff, brag, and even make up stories about what they DON'T have. VERY frustrating and annoying.

Sometimes when they finally drop dead, all their "goodies" end up for sale. (Sometimes. A few times some relative tosses it, and if there's no dumpster diver, they're gone forever).

Yes, another BIG frustration is converting obsolete media (2 inch video tape) or simply old media (16 mm transfer is costly). How do you deal with the expense?
I let some stuff go by on eBay 'cause I just couldn't afford the transfer price AND the asking price. No way did I think I could get the investment back.

Unless you're a wealthy collector, you'll try and hold on and hope PBS or BBC or somebody does a documentary and knows about you and meets your price. (You also have to be sure you own the rights!)

If you don't keep tight hold of your rarity, and give in to whining friends, somebody will copy and bootleg you, or give your rarity away free just to be a big shot. ("Thanks for the download, pal, I always wanted to see this!")

Hoping for things from Greb's time IS almost hopeless. Consider we don't even have some major feature films from that era (like Lon Chaney's "London After Midnight").

It's also a shame that fairly recent films can look like silent footage because of bad duping and careless loss of the masters. The recent HBO documentary on Ali had film of the Olympics and the Liston fight that was so fuzzy, they added sharp still photos so viewers could really see key moments.

Preservation of "entertainment" which is also HISTORY, has too often been a low priority. We see from the recent outrage over Universal Music Group losing valuable master recordings in a fire (everything from Al Jolson to Tom Petty) that vaults, fireproof storage, and other safety measures still aren't enforced.

While not having Greb footage may SEEM unimportant, consider how guys like Mike Tyson studied old fight films to improve technique, learn tricks, or simply be inspired by grit and determination. Too bad some owners had no determination to preserve their work, and some films are lost forever, or too full of grit to be watchable.

I transfer everything myself except for Beta and 2" Quad. I have a guy for that. Doing it myself I can control the quality and get it just the way I want it rather than pay some guy a fortune to do it for me and maybe muck it up.

[klompton]

Tremendous insights. Thank you.

What's your evaluation of Langford? Are you impressed by the his performances?
Do you think he was any where near as good as Greb?

We don't have footage of Greb, but based on your exhaustive research who do you think might be the fighter(s) who fought most similar to him?

Do you think that if footage were to emerge, he'd appear "primitive", or some how lacking compared to the generations of fighters who've come since?

I like Langford's style. He's an aggressive counter puncher kind of like Tyson. He moves in with his hands down using his head as a target and when the opponent opens up he slips the punches and then comes over with his own through the openings that his opponents punches have left. Very fun guy to watch. He was a great fighter. I dont think he was as unbeatable as some think he is today but he was damn good. I think he was his own worst enemy. He showed up A LOT fat and out of shape. I think he was kind of like Toney in that when he was "on" he was pretty amazing but he ran hot and cold a frequently and his fans tend to discount this today and only focus on how good he was when he showed up in shape and against the right opponent. The problem is that the mental makeup of a fighter is as important as his defense, chin, or punching power and the fact that Langford was given to laziness means that a lot of fighters who were equally great or greater and had a better work ethic would have been able to take advantage of that weakness.

In regards to Greb its hard to say how he would have looked but my own personal opinion is that he would have looked like something of a mix between Joe Calzaghe and Mayorga but busier and with more footwork. The problem is that Greb was very versatile and could really fight a lot of different ways. In fact against very smart opponents he was given to fighting in a different style every round to confuse them and keep them from adjusting. He was often cited in some papers as being the most scientific fighter that town had ever seen and in others he people said he knew nothing about boxing he was just fast and busy so you have a very wide range of opinions throughout his career which is also thrown off a bit by the change in his style necessitated by his blindness later in his career.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I like Langford's style. He's an aggressive counter puncher kind of like Tyson. He moves in with his hands down using his head as a target and when the opponent opens up he slips the punches and then comes over with his own through the openings that his opponents punches have left. Very fun guy to watch. He was a great fighter. I dont think he was as unbeatable as some think he is today but he was damn good. I think he was his own worst enemy. He showed up A LOT fat and out of shape. I think he was kind of like Toney in that when he was "on" he was pretty amazing but he ran hot and cold a frequently and his fans tend to discount this today and only focus on how good he was when he showed up in shape and against the right opponent. The problem is that the mental makeup of a fighter is as important as his defense, chin, or punching power and the fact that Langford was given to laziness means that a lot of fighters who were equally great or greater and had a better work ethic would have been able to take advantage of that weakness.

In regards to Greb its hard to say how he would have looked but my own personal opinion is that he would have looked like something of a mix between Joe Calzaghe and Mayorga but busier and with more footwork. The problem is that Greb was very versatile and could really fight a lot of different ways. In fact against very smart opponents he was given to fighting in a different style every round to confuse them and keep them from adjusting. He was often cited in some papers as being the most scientific fighter that town had ever seen and in others he people said he knew nothing about boxing he was just fast and busy so you have a very wide range of opinions throughout his career which is also thrown off a bit by the change in his style necessitated by his blindness later in his career.

I appreciate the response!

I didn't realize you had made such a masterpiece available to us. I have just bought your book (you're Stephen Compton, yes?). Having spent many of my formative years just outside of Pittsburgh, I am deeply indebted to you for the work that you have done. Pittsburgh, as you know, is a proud city. You've kept alive the story of the greatest sports hero that never was. Trajic, indeed, but Greb should be remember the same as Dempsey or Ali; or other sports stars, like Messi, Jordan, Woods and Brady.


What do you think happened that he never met Dempsey in the ring? Did Dempsey know he'd lose his title?

Do you think Greb was the greatest of all time? Clearly, his record is unmatched. No one comes close. Loughran, Tunney, Giibons: they all have great footwork. He must have been every bit as versatile as you suggest to so regularly compete with those men. It's astounding what he accomplished.

[klompton]

I appreciate the response!

I didn't realize you had made such a masterpiece available to us. I have just bought your book (you're Stephen Compton, yes?).

Yes I am he. Thank you for the kind words. I hope you enjoy it.

What do you think happened that he never met Dempsey in the ring? Did Dempsey know he'd lose his title?

Dempsey wouldnt go anywhere near Greb. It was really a no win situation for him. On the face of it most people would have assumed that Dempsey would have beaten Greb easily. Thus the expectation for him to perform was very high. However, he knew how tough, fast, and tricky Greb was. He wasnt getting Greb out of there with some one round knockout. Win or lose he was going to look bad and if he didnt stop Greb he would be so far behind on points that if the fight was held in a state that allowed decisions he would be in trouble. If he knocks Greb out the fans would have just said "well, thats what we expected." If it goes to a decision and he wins then hes underperformed. Any other result is disastrous for him. So it was easier to avoid Greb than get in the ring with him. Greb should have gotten a shot. He deserved it and it would have drawn well enough to make it worth Dempsey's while but Dempsey and the people who were handling him knew well enough not to go there. He had half a dozen bonafide offers to fight Greb from 1918 to 1925 and every single time it was Dempsey or his management who killed the deal.

Do you think Greb was the greatest of all time? Clearly, his record is unmatched. No one comes close. Loughran, Tunney, Giibons: they all have great footwork. He must have been every bit as versatile as you suggest to so regularly compete with those men. It's astounding what he accomplished.

He's certainly got a solid argument for being the greatest. Ive always said when you are mentioned in that company it doesnt really matter if you are THE best. There are really, in my opinion, only a handful of fighters in history who could really be considered possibly the greatest fighting man of all time and hes one of them without a doubt. To be in that discussion, out of the thousands of fighters in history, it doesnt get better than that.

[QueensburyRules]

Dempsey wouldnt go anywhere near Greb. It was really a no win situation for him. On the face of it most people would have assumed that Dempsey would have beaten Greb easily. Thus the expectation for him to perform was very high. However, he knew how tough, fast, and tricky Greb was. He wasnt getting Greb out of there with some one round knockout. Win or lose he was going to look bad and if he didnt stop Greb he would be so far behind on points that if the fight was held in a state that allowed decisions he would be in trouble. If he knocks Greb out the fans would have just said "well, thats what we expected." If it goes to a decision and he wins then hes underperformed. Any other result is disastrous for him. So it was easier to avoid Greb than get in the ring with him. Greb should have gotten a shot. He deserved it and it would have drawn well enough to make it worth Dempsey's while but Dempsey and the people who were handling him knew well enough not to go there. He had half a dozen bonafide offers to fight Greb from 1918 to 1925 and every single time it was Dempsey or his management who killed the deal.

- -Keep in mind that when Dempsey remarried and moved to Hollywood, he was making more $$$ than he ever made under Kearns and Rickard.

Moreover he dragged Big Bill Tate with him to spar with as various Harry Wills fights were made before collapsing and took some stick for having a Black man living with him. Bill was upgraded to Chauffeur and got to drive some of the finest classics of the day any auto enthusiast would salivate over. Win/win!

Boxing was never seen as a legit sport like baseball and horse racing, hence the longtime difficulty in making any legit match that didn't have ND rules in place.

Allegedly Greb sparred in a Dempsey training camp. Any truth to that? Any possible animosity?

No matter, perhaps the most conclusive biography of Greb ever may be hard for you to top!

Cong****...

[chrisJS]

The Greb book is fantastic. Probably the greatest book ever penned on one fighter.

I’d love to see something even half as thorough on the likes of Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde. I personally want to write one on Jofre. I’m working on something with his family now that’s very exciting.