Being unbeaten, doesn't mean you are the best

[Elroy The Great]

0's are very difficult to maintain. especially if a guy moves in between divs. im not a fan of rocky the fighter but, in his case, being lucky is better than being good.

[chaconfan]

Yes. Ridiculous. Once again, conjecture. "Everyone knows" translates to BS- something not provable at all. Just a BS assumption that goes on and on. It is not proof of anything.

No NOT ridiculous. Just because YOU think it is, doesn't make it so.
When I said everyone knows, America used to be very racist and tried very hard to have a white guy as champ, I meant everyone who knew anything about the history of boxing. Never heard of books like this one?...
When boxing was ridiculously racist. By Ian Carey.
Or this one. Unforgivable blackness.
Or this.The great white hope.
There are many others and many documentaries that prove that what I suggest as a strong possibility is NOT remotely ridiculous, as it is based on a multitude of previous biased and unfair treatment of black fighters not being allowed to fight for the title etc.
I did not say it would happen for a fact, so why is it not a possibility?

[chaconfan]

0's are very difficult to maintain. especially if a guy moves in between divs. im not a fan of rocky the fighter but, in his case, being lucky is better than being good.

My point is that HIS 0 WAS NOT THOUGH. Certainly not as hard to maintain as any other champion because the four good guys he beat, were all past their peak, and two of them were former light heavies. Walcott retired after his defeat, so he obviously knew he was past his best. Moore was approx 45 years old and was beaten far easier by many other people.
I always like things to be clear when I am debating anything. So I just want to say that firstly I am not a Marciano hater, I just know that his record is padded with bums, old men, and lighter weight fighters.
Talking about being clear, you do know that Rocky did not move between divisions, don't you?
Some of his opponents did, some were previously light heavies and even middleweights, but he himself only ever fought at heavyweight.

[chaconfan]

To show you that we can pick apart any fighter's record from any era, here are several fighter's records for you to consider:

Rudolph Bent 44-42-4
Peter Schmidt 22-25-7
Harvey McCullough 7-25-2
Rocky Randall 79-54-14
Jimmy Beecham 41-30-3
Fabio Bettini 20-10-5
Clarence Riley 21-31-5
George Estatoff 3-11-2
Wilf Greaves 34-20-1
Ted Olla 35-18-2
Jean Wanes 24-33-11
Kid Marcel 81-38-25
Billy Brown 59-30-8
Cliiff Beckett 17-14-3
Vern Lester 25-26-15
Charley Dodson 37-29-4
Al Mobley 50-26-5
George LaRover 65-26-6
Don Lee 46-18-9
Cecil Hudson 59-30-4
Freddie Flores 21-38-10
Ossie Harris 41-45-5
Flashy Sebastian 42-18-6
Sammie Secreet 30-20-2
Eddie Finazzo 39-31-5
Freddie Wilson 15-29-0
Sidney Miller 11-24-5
Izzy Jannazzo 63-42-15
Tony Riccio 30-16-6
Vic Dellicurti 39-28-9
Carl Guggino 109-42-25
Victor Troise 20-29-10
Joe Ghnouly 65-28-8
Charley Burns 41-38-8

I'm sure you don't recognize any of these names. By today's standards most casuals would call them bums, a term I detest towards any fighter. However, these were some of Sugar Ray Robinson's opponents, most of whom he fought during his prime, and several of them he fought in multiple bouts. I even left a few out for the sake of brevity.

So while you're aching about Marciano's opponent who had 57 losses, it wasn't uncommon for fighter's of that era to stay busy by fighting club fighters and journeymen in between title fights just to keep earning a paycheck and stay sharp and in fighting condition.

Ray Robinson is arguably one of the greatest prize fighters of all time, and even he had several opponents on his record who carried losing records.

Firstly I don't need examples of other records that could be picked apart, as I am intelligent and unbiased, so can therefore assume and acknowledge that they exist.

Secondly, I am not "aching" over Marciano fighting a guy with 57 losses, I am merely adding credibility to my point, which was that being unbeaten does not mean you are the best. It depends surely on who you beat.
Ray Robinson is considered by many to be the best, and I am one of those many. His accomplishments are extraordinary and even if we did decide to try and pick apart faults in his record, his achievements would still far outweigh any criticisms we might dig up.
Please don't feel the need to defend Marciano against me, as I keep trying to make it clear that I am not a hater of him, and I do know that he had heart, stamina, will power, and that it is not his fault that he did not have to beat good unbeaten fighters to remain unbeaten himself.

[chaconfan]

This one is really interesting & legit lucky. This fight woulda been a draw I believe in every other state in the US besides NY as the official judges had it a split draw, but at the time NY had a supplemental scoring system that was basically a tie breaker for a draw & Marciano won via that system when in another state it'd have just been a draw that would have put a mark on his still undefeated, but not perfect record anymore with that draw.

I believe he also took a L or two after his pro debut when he went back to the amateur game for a year & change which is an interesting side note that could be considered lucky to Rocky's perfect record.

Thanks for your input. If that is you that I can see, then I can safely say that black guys always agree with my views on Rocky. Virtually all my fav boxers are black, Mexican or Puerto Rican, but I never see a fan of a white boxer other than a white guy/girl. Interesting side point, which some people will think controversial and some will try to prove me wrong, but I have many black friends and have been on many forums plus youtube, and this has always been the case.

[Eff Pandas]

Thanks for your input. If that is you that I can see, then I can safely say that black guys always agree with my views on Rocky. Virtually all my fav boxers are black, Mexican or Puerto Rican, but I never see a fan of a white boxer other than a white guy/girl. Interesting side point, which some people will think controversial and some will try to prove me wrong, but I have many black friends and have been on many forums plus youtube, and this has always been the case.

That's Del the funky ****sapien bro. Or a well known stripper if you are talking about the chick in my sig quote area lol.

And I don't think its a racial thing by any means. Rocky was a bad mfer. I just find these lil details people overlook now interesting & wasn't bringing up what I brought up to dog Rocky just throwing out facts.

Hell man JCC had a DQ L early in his career that got reversed cuz his manager was on the boxing commission so his 80ish & 0 record was lucky too. And he was still a bad mfer too.

[Elroy The Great]

My point is that HIS 0 WAS NOT THOUGH. Certainly not as hard to maintain as any other champion because the four good guys he beat, were all past their peak, and two of them were former light heavies. Walcott retired after his defeat, so he obviously knew he was past his best. Moore was approx 45 years old and was beaten far easier by many other people.
I always like things to be clear when I am debating anything. So I just want to say that firstly I am not a Marciano hater, I just know that his record is padded with bums, old men, and lighter weight fighters.
Talking about being clear, you do know that Rocky did not move between divisions, don't you?
Some of his opponents did, some were previously light heavies and even middleweights, but he himself only ever fought at heavyweight.

i was referring to may (the bold stuff)

as limited as rocky was, youd have thought a slick guy could have razzle dazzled him. sure, he stared clear of guys like that but not everyone he fought was a mini tex cobb.

no off night in 40+ tries is pretty impressive. even if you only fight a certain type of guy.

imho

[BattlingNelson]

I just want to say that firstly I am not a Marciano hater, I just know that his record is padded with bums, old men, and lighter weight fighters.

Lol ok.

[chaconfan]

Lol ok.

Not a clue what I am supposed to take from a simple "Lol ok" but I will say that what I said is the truth. I am 100% NOT a Marciano hater at all. I admire his fitness, toughness and determination. If I was his number 1 fan in the world, I would still question his unbeaten record, it is just the way I am.
I am a massive fan of Ray Leonard, but I always point out the ridiculous special rules made for him to enable him to win two belts in two weights in one fight.

[chaconfan]

no off night in 40+ tries is pretty impressive. even if you only fight a certain type of guy.

imho

But it really isn't that difficult to achieve pal. There have been tons of guys who built up long unbeaten streaks, only to lose when they fought someone who could fight back.
If you retire before young tough fighters challenge you, you can avoid a defeat. Julio Cesar Chavez was 87-0 at one time, and in those 87 wins, he had won titles in different weights and had beaten tons of great fighters, but no one makes a big deal about that anymore because he got beat, just like anyone eventually would, but why take credit away from a guy who did not quit whilst on top? We could say, he only lost because he was old, worn out, fighting bigger men etc, but we don't, we focus on guys with unbeaten records, which is unfair.
Let me show you how people are right here. Deontay Wilder is 38 -0 37 ko's and the only time he did not ko his opponent was because he broke his hand whilst hitting him. This is a fact right? Thing is, you can go on any boxing forum and people will be criticizing him for his lack of quality opposition. When time passes, people forget, and then a myth and legend grows. Imagine in fifty years time, if Wilder goes 60 and 0 or something like that, people won't bring up his lack of quality opposition, they will just consider his record amazing, just like most people do regarding Marciano's.