a prime Marciano VS a prime Liston, who'd win?

[Vadrigar.]

IMO Liston would. The 84 inch jab would be hitting Marciano fairly easily IMO, and it has so much power. Liston has so much power too, he hit in and around Foreman's range.

I think Marciano would put up a great fight, but IMO Liston would have too much.

I think Liston knocks him out in the mid rounds. Marciano's way of fighting would be playing into Liston's hands.

[Greatest1942]

I think Liston knocks him out in the mid rounds. Marciano's way of fighting would be playing into Liston's hands.

Bull****....It's just a myth propagated by Liston pundits...as quotes from guys who actually fought Liston shows, that he could be fought inside.

[Vadrigar.]

Bull****....It's just a myth propagated by Liston pundits...as quotes from guys who actually fought Liston shows, that he could be fought inside.

Whatever Marciano tries will not work.

[Capaedia]

Just saying there was and still is no medical proof...take it as you wish.

Ok, but I don't understand why you'd bring it up if that's not what you were saying.

I said those things to illustrate that , Sonny was never like George who liked to blow his opponents away early, invariably...He was more of a boxer puncher...who liked to stay outside...If you read my post you might find a line like "Sonny liked to stand his ground and box from range when the occasion suited. He actually knew he could hurt guys from the outside with his jab. Both had great Uppercuts though."...Are you saying anything different by the way?

Not really, but much to, for example, Floyd Patterson or Dave Bailey's dismay, Sonny could get aggressive and get his opponent out of there early if he sensed a weakness to really capitalize on.

In my book to show you have late power you have to have late round KO's...not guesses what he did and how he did...may be its different in your book...do you think George carried his power late by the by?

I think it's more complex than that, what could affect his late KO ratio and not be related to his power you may ask? The most obvious thing would be how he was quite slow on his feet and not always in a position to use his power.

Even still he would on occasion catch and knockout his opponent in the latter rounds of a fight. Hell his punches never really stopped 'shaking' his opponents around.

As for whether George carried his power late. I don't think he carried HIS power late, but there was still enough to be cautious about.

If he carried Foreman power late, there would have been fatalities.

And again what are you saying about "Sonny had a tendency" , didnt I say this ? I said George was more agreesive than Liston and may be you skipped this :- "Sonny was never the go to hell I will get you out of here fighter that George was...The films do not support that...he was more of a boxer puncher...who liked to box behind his jab and wait for his openings..."

What I meant was as the fight went on he became less and less willing to take an opening, and happier with taking a decision.

This part was not for you anyways , it was for Poet and my view that George and Sonny were different..read it again please.

I let my appreciation for Liston get the better of me there, sorry I guess.

I have seen plently of evidence Liston having stamina issues late in his career...as evidenced by his KO against Martin where he was gassed for that last rounds...and visibly tired...

I'll give you that.

You can watch his fight against Whitehurst, and see , how Sonny's work rate diminishe sin the later round ( and it is a10 rounder)...Liston's huffing and puffing as the rounds progressed against Henry Clark were there for all to see

How many 15 rounds did Liston fight that made you assume he does not have issues...

Not a 15 round fight but in the Eddie Machen fight, over all 12 rounds I'm not seeing any unusual falling off of stamina or power. You never specified when said issues started to affect Liston.

In those examples you named, I'm not seeing anything severe, that being the word you used to describe his "stamina issues".

Especially not if we take into consideration that he was getting pretty old by the end of his career. I remember an article, I think it was on Cox's Corner, that placed Liston around the age of 40 for the Clay fights.

A lot had to do with the fact that he may be was unable to follow up on his leads the same way he was in the later rounds...Why will a murderous puncher settle down to decision mode when he knows he can bring the KO any time...

That comes into it with Liston like it does for everyone else, but Liston is a lot more cautious than he would at first appear.

His chin was not impregnable, and taking an opportunity that may or may not be there might get HIM knocked out.

he finished Williams on the inside? I think when he did finish him on the inside Williams was actually in lala land after that savage assault from teh outside.

He did a lot of damage from both ranges. Big Cat was not an easy man to finish. In their second fight in particular you could tell a lot of the damage was coming from the inside.

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Did I miss anything?

[Greatest1942]

Whatever Marciano tries will not work.

Yea obviously Einstein...Marciano could not do better than a legend like WhiteHurst did or a fearsome Marshall (who actually also dropped Liston) achieved....or not land the right hand after the left hand was dropped ...like Machen pointed out...Go sell your bull**** else where...

You seem to be as logical as some of Klit fans are...Just "this wont work"....

I am not sure Rock can get to Liston and vise versa...I will however never ever call my views final..becuase only nut huggers make statements without caring to go after the facts...

Liston was a very good heavy, but he is not the all destoying man he is potrayed to be...Some legends are of course better suited to protect some other legends.

[Vadrigar.]

Yea obviously Einstein...Marciano could not do better than a legend like WhiteHurst did or a fearsome Marshall (who actually also dropped Liston) achieved....or not land the right hand after the left hand was dropped ...like Machen pointed out...Go sell your bull**** else where...

The same same points can be made against Marciano with the opponents he fought. Or you can make the prime/green/post prime/off night argument along side, both ways.

You seem to be as logical as some of Klit fans are...Just "this wont work"....

But you're sounding like an angry klitlicker right now.

[Greatest1942]

Ok, but I don't understand why you'd bring it up if that's not what you were saying.



Not really, but much to, for example, Floyd Patterson or Dave Bailey's dismay, Sonny could get aggressive and get his opponent out of there early if he sensed a weakness to really capitalize on.



I think it's more complex than that, what could affect his late KO ratio and not be related to his power you may ask? The most obvious thing would be how he was quite slow on his feet and not always in a position to use his power.

Even still he would on occasion catch and knockout his opponent in the latter rounds of a fight. Hell his punches never really stopped 'shaking' his opponents around.

As for whether George carried his power late. I don't think he carried HIS power late, but there was still enough to be cautious about.

If he carried Foreman power late, there would have been fatalities.



What I meant was as the fight went on he became less and less willing to take an opening, and happier with taking a decision.


I let my appreciation for Liston get the better of me there, sorry I guess.



I'll give you that.



Not a 15 round fight but in the Eddie Machen fight, over all 12 rounds I'm not seeing any unusual falling off of stamina or power. You never specified when said issues started to affect Liston.

In those examples you named, I'm not seeing anything severe, that being the word you used to describe his "stamina issues".

Especially not if we take into consideration that he was getting pretty old by the end of his career. I remember an article, I think it was on Cox's Corner, that placed Liston around the age of 40 for the Clay fights.



That comes into it with Liston like it does for everyone else, but Liston is a lot more cautious than he would at first appear.

His chin was not impregnable, and taking an opportunity that may or may not be there might get HIM knocked out.



He did a lot of damage from both ranges. Big Cat was not an easy man to finish. In their second fight in particular you could tell a lot of the damage was coming from the inside.

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Did I miss anything?

"Ok, but I don't understand why you'd bring it up if that's not what you were saying"
In the absence of any proof , I have doubts whether it was a excuse to cover up a bad loss...anyways in the next fight Marty Marshall procedded to drop Liston with a punch again before being stopped.



"Not really, but much to, for example, Floyd Patterson or Dave Bailey's dismay, Sonny could get aggressive and get his opponent out of there early if he sensed a weakness to really capitalize on."

You give Liston credit here...but it apeears to me Floyd fought the wrong fight...He should have not gone to Liston...a common sparring mate of both, said Floyd should step away from Liston which will make it hard for Liston..with Floyd's chin it was suicide IMO...And I did post that Liston fired when the others opened up on him as it did give him the openings...


"I think it's more complex than that, what could affect his late KO ratio and not "
I never saw a Liston fight where he was fast in his feet...And carrying your power later also entails that you are able to land your murderous punches and be in position....My point is even if he did carry his power late...the simple fatc he slowed down considerably will never allow a late KO over a top ATG...Liston's jab always hurt, but he never could quite follow up with the big punches later on...

I cannot give a guy credit for something he never did...for what ever reasons..

"What I meant was as the fight went on he became less and less willing to take an opening, and happier with taking a decision."

And what I mean is as the fight wore on he became less and less able to throw in his sunday punches or be in position to deliver them..which made him look for the decisions may be? Sounds plausible to me.


Machen had a bad right hand going into the fight...on film also it appears he does not throw it enough...If he hit Liston more in the body the gas will go quicker...

By the by , no surprises Machen had his best round sin the last two…Liston swung wildly in the 11th round to KO Machen...not the decison mode it seems to me...

By the by , about Liston being 40 years old…in the 1930 census he is not there..his brothers and sisters born before him are there not Liston. Now do you have a better proof? I will only say Liston showed lack of Stamina and heart at an age where he should not have in this case. If he looked older it can be because of the life style he had and the rigours he went through early..
“That comes into it with Liston like it does for everyone else, but Liston is a lot more cautious than he would at first appear.”..

One of the reasons may be was because he never quite could let his hands go in the later rounds as he could in the starting ones..If given the opportunity why shouldn’t he? After all he never had all the judges on pay…And lastly on film it does appear he was trying hard to KO machen in the 11th far from the “decision mode” , but he was wild.I always wrote Liston was a boxer puncher more like Joe Louis…however I remember Joe Louis being better on the later rounds than Liston ever was…Liston knew his problems IMO.


“Big Cat”

Was KO’d by Satterfield quite easily…and when he did face top opponents generally did not fare well except against Terell. Who did beat him later too.
It did not take Liston to KO him out surely...

What you missed? I posted a lot of stuff on opponents of Sonny who discussed how he should be fought? Turns out that most thought that he could be beaten even if some one did not run like Machen or Ali...most thought he could be beaten in the inside.

And lastly I hold Liston in high regards and have done some reading on him....But that doesn't mean I think Rocky will be blown away

[Mintcar923]

Funny, I had just watched the movies "Rocky Marciano," and "Phantom Punch," back to back last night. It's ironic that this is one of the current debates, now. Both movies pushed my emotional buttons and I had great admiration and respect for both fighters. I felt that Rocky was a better man overall but that's besides the point. As far as a boxing match... Liston had an excellent boxer-puncher style. He had an immense jab and incredible brute power. Rocky Marciano was statistically perhaps one of the top 2 or 3 greatest hitters in the history of the sport. But, his greatest quality was perhaps the biggest heart and will boxing's ever known. Liston COULD win but I wouldn't bet on it. Even if he manages to put the Rock down you know he will get up and fight even harder. He'll survive some scary moments early but his superior heart will carry him to victory. A war of attrition for the first 6 rounds but Marciano will eventually take over and brutally stop him in 8th or 9th the way he did Joe Louis.

[Greatest1942]

The same same points can be made against Marciano with the opponents he fought. Or you can make the prime/green/post prime/off night argument along side, both ways.



But you're sounding like an angry klitlicker right now.

As I said genius...



I post all those stuff to prove that Marciano's style is not canon fodder for Sonny Liston's...he could be fought in other ways than a hit and run employed by Clay or Machen....


Lets see what your posts are :-

You post :- "I think Liston knocks him out in the mid rounds. Marciano's way of fighting would be playing into Liston's hands. "

I say :- "I think Liston knocks him out in the mid rounds. Marciano's way of fighting would be playing into Liston's hands. "

If you do some reading you will find I have already posted a lot of material from three Liston opponents too support my claim...and prove why Marciano can do well or might do well...

What do you post :-
"Whatever Marciano tries will not work. "

And since you believe that Marciano was incapable of doing what legends like Whitehurst or Marshall could do...I naturally thought that you are like most Klit lickers whose only arguement was "Liston is made to odrer for Viatly"

Come on don't be shy...just admit you are just a Liston licker like some are Klit lickers...atleast your arguements do not hold much water than theirs...

With gems like " Whatever Marciano tries will not work."...you really build your credibility...

By the by...if you read a bit more you will see that I do have disagreements with another poster, who has tried to argue his case and I have done so too...but with geniuses like you i have little patience sorry...because the only thing they have is "Whatever Marciano tries will not work. "...

...

[Vadrigar.]

I post all those stuff to prove that Marciano's style is not canon fodder for Sonny Liston's...he could be fought in other ways than a hit and run employed by Clay or Machen....

In theory he could, In practice what Marciano would try will not work based on the way he fights.

Lets see what your posts are :-

You post :- "I think Liston knocks him out in the mid rounds. Marciano's way of fighting would be playing into Liston's hands. "

I say :- "I think Liston knocks him out in the mid rounds. Marciano's way of fighting would be playing into Liston's hands. "

If you do some reading you will find I have already posted a lot of material from three Liston opponents too support my claim...and prove why Marciano can do well or might do well...

What exactly was that claim?

What do you post :-
"Whatever Marciano tries will not work. "

And since you believe that Marciano was incapable of doing what legends like Whitehurst or Marshall could do...I naturally thought that you are like most Klit lickers whose only arguement was "Liston is made to odrer for Viatly"

Again, as I already said the same The same same points can be made against Marciano with the opponents he fought. My argument isn't even like that, since Liston against Vitali is a completely different match up with a different style opponent. Think before throwing out a klitlicker accusation next time.

Come on don't be shy...just admit you are just a Liston licker like some are Klit lickers...atleast your arguements do not hold much water than theirs...

I have nothing to admit..I'm being quite open.

With gems like " Whatever Marciano tries will not work."...you really build your credibility...

Just like you build your credibility by insults and the bog standard fallacious klitlicker comparison. Ok.........

By the by...if you read a bit more you will see that I do have disagreements with another poster, who has tried to argue his case and I have done so too...but with geniuses like you i have little patience sorry...because the only thing they have is "Whatever Marciano tries will not work. "...

It's called a prediction for a fantasy fight. There's nothing wrong with posting it here.

...

For you, yes.