Jack Dempsey vs Lennox Lewis.

[Scott9945]

The point I'm making is that there have been many instances where a fighter was glassy eyed and on shaky legs, and still allowed to continue. It was early in what had been a pedestrian fight to that point. The champion beat the count, was on his feet and deserved the chance to continue, a chance that many past champions were given in fights they went on to win. With that referee, many more great fighters who were glassy eyed and wobbly after a knockdown would have some additional KO losses on their record.

Would you say Lewis was hurt worse than Larry Holmes was here? Would the Lewis ref even bother to count once he saw Larry almost KO himself on the ringpost?

I'd like to know even one previous title fight where the champion wasn't allowed to continue after beating the count after one early one punch knockdown. And don't count any Don King promotions (Dokes-Weaver I).

Let me put it like this, if it were Mike Tyson there instead of Lewis no ****ing way that fight gets stopped that quick.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

The point I'm making is that there have been many instances where a fighter was glassy eyed and on shaky legs, and still allowed to continue. It was early in what had been a pedestrian fight to that point. The champion beat the count, was on his feet and deserved the chance to continue, a chance that many past champions were given in fights they went on to win. With that referee, many more great fighters who were glassy eyed and wobbly after a knockdown would have some additional KO losses on their record.

Would you say Lewis was hurt worse than Larry Holmes was here? Would the Lewis ref even bother to count once he saw Larry almost KO himself on the ringpost?

With respect, it is a fruitless endeavour to use the logic, "Well, if X was allowed to continue, so should this be..." it is absolutely endless in its labyrinth of examples & counter-examples, & is completely open to being skewed beyond all reasonable perspective.

Larry Holmes is not in the discussion. What happened there happened, & that's separate. It's rather like all these people who bring up Barry McGuigan when discussing whether or not Fighter X is HOF-worthy. "Well, if Barry got in, they should, too," but there are plenty of instances of worthy fighters who've been waiting decades for induction (& continue to wait) as counter-examples.

Was Lewis in danger if he continued? It would be fair to argue a yes to that. Was he badly wobbling? I thought so, yes. Was he glazed? Yes, he was. What's so bad about the call? I'm not saying it was a sure-fire TKO, but there's really very little to be up in arms about. You keep saying, "the Champion this, the Champion that," well, first thing first, he wasn't the Champion. He was just a title-holder, not the Champion of the division. Secondly, I don't acknowledge that should significantly influence a referee's discretion when deciding to wave off a fight or not. A Champion is still a human being, still bone & sinew, flesh & blood. He is at risk like any other man. This wasn't even a major fight, truth be told. Had Lewis won as expected, it wouldn't even be footnote material.

I guess at the end of the day, you either feel Lewis was robbed, or he wasn't. I don't. McCall stopped him dead in his tracks with a pearler of a strike, & Lewis was closer to gone than he was to being ready when he rose.

[CarlosG815]

With respect, it is a fruitless endeavour to use the logic, "Well, if X was allowed to continue, so should this be..." it is absolutely endless in its labyrinth of examples & counter-examples, & is completely open to being skewed beyond all reasonable perspective.

Larry Holmes is not in the discussion. What happened there happened, & that's separate. It's rather like all these people who bring up Barry McGuigan when discussing whether or not Fighter X is HOF-worthy. "Well, if Barry got in, they should, too," but there are plenty of instances of worthy fighters who've been waiting decades for induction (& continue to wait) as counter-examples.

Was Lewis in danger if he continued? It would be fair to argue a yes to that. Was he badly wobbling? I thought so, yes. Was he glazed? Yes, he was. What's so bad about the call? I'm not saying it was a sure-fire TKO, but there's really very little to be up in arms about. You keep saying, "the Champion this, the Champion that," well, first thing first, he wasn't the Champion. He was just a title-holder, not the Champion of the division. Secondly, I don't acknowledge that should significantly influence a referee's discretion when deciding to wave off a fight or not. A Champion is still a human being, still bone & sinew, flesh & blood. He is at risk like any other man. This wasn't even a major fight, truth be told. Had Lewis won as expected, it wouldn't even be footnote material.

I guess at the end of the day, you either feel Lewis was robbed, or he wasn't. I don't. McCall stopped him dead in his tracks with a pearler of a strike, & Lewis was closer to gone than he was to being ready when he rose.

You're a great addition to this forum. I'm glad you're here, you said it all.

[Kid McCoy]

With respect, it is a fruitless endeavour to use the logic, "Well, if X was allowed to continue, so should this be..." it is absolutely endless in its labyrinth of examples & counter-examples, & is completely open to being skewed beyond all reasonable perspective.

Larry Holmes is not in the discussion. What happened there happened, & that's separate. It's rather like all these people who bring up Barry McGuigan when discussing whether or not Fighter X is HOF-worthy. "Well, if Barry got in, they should, too," but there are plenty of instances of worthy fighters who've been waiting decades for induction (& continue to wait) as counter-examples.

It's a valid comparison. There are plenty of examples of fighters who were hurt as bad or worse than Lewis was against McCall, yet they were allowed to continue and in many cases they went on to win and in the process demonstrate their chin, heart, recuperative powers etc. Lewis wasn't given that opportunity and will always have the McCall loss held against him, even though the likes of Dempsey would have been allowed to continue in the same situation. Firpo anyone? What would Holmes' reputation be now if the referee had decided that he was glassy eyed and wobbly? An LTKO7 to Snipes wouldn't look good on the resume.

Was Lewis in danger if he continued? It would be fair to argue a yes to that. Was he badly wobbling? I thought so, yes. Was he glazed? Yes, he was. What's so bad about the call? I'm not saying it was a sure-fire TKO, but there's really very little to be up in arms about. You keep saying, "the Champion this, the Champion that," well, first thing first, he wasn't the Champion. He was just a title-holder, not the Champion of the division. Secondly, I don't acknowledge that should significantly influence a referee's discretion when deciding to wave off a fight or not. A Champion is still a human being, still bone & sinew, flesh & blood. He is at risk like any other man. This wasn't even a major fight, truth be told. Had Lewis won as expected, it wouldn't even be footnote material.

I guess at the end of the day, you either feel Lewis was robbed, or he wasn't. I don't. McCall stopped him dead in his tracks with a pearler of a strike, & Lewis was closer to gone than he was to being ready when he rose.

So by the same token, do you think the Holmes-Snipes referee made the wrong call? Was Holmes stopped dead in his tracks? Absolutely. Wobbly? Without a doubt. In danger? As much as Lewis was. But one was allowed to continue and one wasn't. As a more recent example, Golota was staggering all over the ring against Lewis and that was allowed to go on too. You may say it's a separate issue, but I feel it makes for a good comparison.

This is where we differ. I don't think a championship fight should be stopped in that fashion. It was the second round of what had been an uneventful fight, Lewis had not taken a beating up to that point, he hadn't been knocked down earlier, and though wobbly he beat the count and was on his feet and ready to fight with his gloves up. To me that says the fighter should at least be given a chance to carry on.

If McCall had proceeded to pummel Lewis or knocked him down again then fair enough. Lewis might also have clinched or moved like he did when he was hurt against Briggs and Klitschko. When you also take into account that it was a hitherto unknown WBC referee stopping the opponent of a Don King fighter in that manner and there are plenty of reasons to be sceptical.

[MickyHatton]

I am not one to count Lewis out of a fight with Dempsey, but it seems the first thing people bring up is the weight advantage for Lewis --- I would argue that, even if you ignore Dempsey's smashing record against big men (& we shouldn't, as some were good, capable fighters independent of their size), is it not just as significant an edge for Dempsey in speed, as it is for Lewis in size? The gulf in actual overall speed between Dempsey & Lewis is as utterly vast as the size differential, & at least as important in deciding the outcome.

Regarding the McCall-Lewis I stoppage, I don't know why this is an argument nearly twenty years on. Yes, the call was somewhat debatable, but there is just no feasible way anyone can point to that TKO & say, "Hands down, that was premature, that was a robbery." At best, it was an arguable call --- & one I agree with, but even if I didn't, Lewis gets up, has --- at absolute best --- really shaky legs, & heavily-glazed eyes. Even when it's waived off, look closely. He protests, but his eyes are still unclear.

There's not one thing wrong with that stoppage. Lewis could've continued, possibly. However, I doubt it, & I defy anyone to tell me the man was standing there in no trouble at all.

I would agree if we were talking about an average big man here, we are not.

Was Dempsey faster than Lewis, yes but did he have the style to get past his massive reach advantage (7") enough to score enough, I dont think so therefore Lewis'e additional strength would come into play. Plus in the clinches the weight advantage would be a huge help.

[The Surgeon]

I just find it hard to see Dempsey (who i love) Beating Lewis (who i dont like)

Lewis was so much bigger and the guy had the punch to match, he wasnt like a willard or Primo the new age big guys can move well and none better so than Lennox.

[katsidis]

Both are top 10 heavyweights hard to pickas to who is greater, i could see an argument for both fighters. As for head to head I would pick Lennox.

[Canes Ghost]

Lennox may be somewhat accurate with a bit of power but he doesn't have speed when compared to Dempsey, and he has never had good footwork. Lennox has always just been an average boxer in my eyes.

I nor Sonny use triangular logic. Sonny is like me in the sense that he uses what he sees a fighter do in the ring do make his own determination. You want to look at Lennox resume of washups and D rated fighters and say "He beat everyone he ever faced" yet ignore the facts that when you watch him he just isn't very good. I'm not the best basketball player in the world, but if you match me up with the right people I could go undefeated. I'm not a great boxer but if you match me up with bums, I would walk through them.

Lennox never fought a top contender who was prime - that is a fact and it is usually only detested by Brits/Canadians/Europeans and Lennox apologists.

Lennox was put to sleep in the 2nd round by Oliver McCall. He is the only fighter believed by many to be "great" who was put to sleep so convincingly and so early in a fight by a single punch. This is a fact. I started a thread on it and with many replies, he was the only one - FACT.

I have no respect for Lewis as a fighter because of these facts (and other things I believe, but I won't list them as facts because they can be debated. What I have listed above can not even be debated.), and I have no respect for him as a person for his lack of sportsmanship after losing and how he continues to complain and put down and disrespect other fights, even to this day. He is everything you hate to see in a retired boxer.

Still, I don't factor these things when I think about fantasy matchups. I look at Lewis' terrible footwork, his lack of defense, and his glass jaw and I can easily determine that a fast, strong, good moving fighter with a ton of power and great footwork like Jack Dempsey would have zero problems with the big and slow glass jawed Lennox Lewis.

For you to believe that I am saying this simply because I dislike Lennox and like Dempsey is unfounded. Many that follow boxing and know history would agree with me that Dempsey would make light work of Lennox, yet you accuse me of being bias, yet you wouldn't accuse anybody else. Just because I have Dempsey in my top 5 in my sig? Come on man.

You can't honestly watch film on Dempsey destroying men then watch Lennox struggle and get KO'd by journeyman and sparring partners and say my case is simply based on bias.

I'm so sorry, I really thought I knew something about boxing but I clearly don't.

I stand corrected on Lewis because I never knew the facts but now I do.

Lewis wasn't very good FACT - because you say so
Lewis fought washed up bums and D rated fighters and never fought a top contender in his prime FACT - because you say so
Lewis is the only supposed 'great' champion to be put to sleep by a single punch early in a fight FACT - because you say so

You come on man get real.

I have no problem with Dempsey being in your top 5 or with you picking Dempsey to beat Lewis, do you not understand what i'm getting at.

Have you ever climbed through the ropes?

How can you claim to be a historian or even a fan of the sport when you say you have NO RESPECT for Lewis as a fighter because of the FACTS you've listed. Does Lewis get any respect whatsoever for anything he's done in the ring ever.

Grow up and put the hatred aside and give me some real reasons as to why Dempsey would destroy Lewis so easily. Because you have given me nothing son.

I bolded your last paragraph because that sums up everything. You have based this on watching a 100 year old highlight reel of Dempsey knocking people out and seen everything he does as great and then compared it to modern day footage of Lewis getting knocked out (a fighter you admit to having no respect for either as a fighter or a person) and then you come up with 5 because in your little head Dempsey is so high up on this pedestal that there is no way possible for him to lose against such an awful fighter as Lewis.

That's my FUCKING problem here.

So am I wasting my time talking to some idiot that will only ever see it that way. (FACT)

Or am I talking to a knowledgable fan that can tell me why and how Dempsey should try and go about beating Lewis. What are Dempseys best chances of victory, what are his weaknesses and what problems is Lewis going to pose for Dempsey.

These all great champions we are talking about, even though there are some we love and some we love to hate they get my respect and any of the greats is capable of beating any other great on any given night.

Seriously if you have no respect for Lewis as a fighter or any other great for that matter then you need to back up and keep going until you reach NSB and don't come back son.

[Canes Ghost]

I would agree if we were talking about an average big man here, we are not.

Was Dempsey faster than Lewis, yes but did he have the style to get past his massive reach advantage (7") enough to score enough, I dont think so therefore Lewis'e additional strength would come into play. Plus in the clinches the weight advantage would be a huge help.

Have to agree and I think Lewis' speed is deceptive. Not saying he's quicker because clearly he isn't, he's quicker than you think though.

For me Lewis can't trade with Dempsey that much is obvious. If he gets hit by Dempsey especially if he's coming forward himself then it's goodnight vienna.

Lewis can be knocked out but doesn't mean he has a bad chin, he's more than proved that against harder punchers.

Lewis needs to be really focused right from the off and let Dempsey chase him. I think Lewis has enough guile and good enough foot work to keep away and get Dempsey off balance. He can earn Dempseys respect early by keeping him at bay with his long jab and quick right. Dempsey wouldn't expect Lewis to be as quick as he is for such a big man and Lewis' power will be enough to just slow Dempsey down a bit and think before rushing in.

Eventually I see Lewis landing more as Dempsey is less and less reluctant to go charging in. (Tunney did it twice and although Lewis isn't as cute or as tough as Tunney his power will have a bigger impact) I see Lewis winning a UD or by late stoppage but knowing how careful Lewis could be, the UD is more likely unless Dempsey was clearly ready to go otherwise Lewis wouldn't risk it.

If Lewis can't get Dempseys respect then he isn't going to slow him down and if he doesn't slow him down then Lewis is going to have to fight more than he wants to. Fighting toe to toe with Mercer and Briggs is one thing but not with Dempsey. Even if Lewis' chin can take the power he hasn't got the stamina to match Dempsey.

It all hinges on Lewis being able to stay out of range and getting Dempseys respect and I think he can.

[Joeyzagz]

It's a valid comparison. There are plenty of examples of fighters who were hurt as bad or worse than Lewis was against McCall, yet they were allowed to continue and in many cases they went on to win and in the process demonstrate their chin, heart, recuperative powers etc. Lewis wasn't given that opportunity and will always have the McCall loss held against him, even though the likes of Dempsey would have been allowed to continue in the same situation. Firpo anyone? What would Holmes' reputation be now if the referee had decided that he was glassy eyed and wobbly? An LTKO7 to Snipes wouldn't look good on the resume.



So by the same token, do you think the Holmes-Snipes referee made the wrong call? Was Holmes stopped dead in his tracks? Absolutely. Wobbly? Without a doubt. In danger? As much as Lewis was. But one was allowed to continue and one wasn't. As a more recent example, Golota was staggering all over the ring against Lewis and that was allowed to go on too. You may say it's a separate issue, but I feel it makes for a good comparison.

This is where we differ. I don't think a championship fight should be stopped in that fashion. It was the second round of what had been an uneventful fight, Lewis had not taken a beating up to that point, he hadn't been knocked down earlier, and though wobbly he beat the count and was on his feet and ready to fight with his gloves up. To me that says the fighter should at least be given a chance to carry on.

If McCall had proceeded to pummel Lewis or knocked him down again then fair enough. Lewis might also have clinched or moved like he did when he was hurt against Briggs and Klitschko. When you also take into account that it was a hitherto unknown WBC referee stopping the opponent of a Don King fighter in that manner and there are plenty of reasons to be sceptical.

Good post.

One angle that hasnt been discussed is if Mccall even had the skills to finish Lennox? A lot of fighters get too excited once they get their opponent hurt, and end up missing wildly tring to finish them off.

Other than that one punch, Mccall wasnt really able to land cleanly on LL in either fight. A Lennox Lewis in survival mode would be even tougher to hit. But we will never truly know....