Hitting the heavy bag with a weighted vest on? Any added benefit?

[HeadBodyBodyBody]

The above is a common misconception. While one should practice the skills of one's sport as specifically as possible--for example, punching (in training) as quickly as one wishes to in a fight, sparring at the same time as the actual fight will take place, using a mouthpiece and cup when hitting the heavy bag/pads, etc., one should not attempt to mimic the speed at which one will move in the ring during the performance of strength training as doing so will both reduce the effectiveness of the strength training and increase the risk of injury.
Two (of several) excellent posts on this subject by Drew Baye:

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes or something. I'm making the point that one can use a weight vest to increase explosivity, in which case you really do need to keep up the speed. Using a weight vest for pure strength gains... sure, you can do that, do some slow reps, but I don't think this is an optimal use of training time for a boxer, generally-speaking.

There was a famous hurdler, John Akii-Bua, who would use a weight vest in training sometimes. He was running laps, he wasn't walking.

[GelfSara]

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes or something. I'm making the point that one can use a weight vest to increase explosivity, in which case you really do need to keep up the speed.

I suggest you read the links above; the belief that in order to increase speed (in boxing, running, jumping, etc.) one must perform weight-training quickly is a common one, but it is not only incorrect but counterproductive.

If you can only train in ONE way to improve your performance in a given sport, do something that as closely resembles your sport as possible. If you wish to be a better boxer and can only train in one way, spar. If you wish to be a better high jumper and can only do one thing; practice high jumping. And so on.

If you can only do TWO things, however, practice your sport AND perform strength training in a manner that significantly strengthens the muscle groups used in the performance of your sport, and--if necessary--also provides a significant stimulus to the cardiovascular system (not necessary if one is high-jumping or putting the shot; necessary if one is boxing, wrestling, playing tennis, etc.).

[HeadBodyBodyBody]

I suggest you read the links above; the belief that in order to increase speed (in boxing, running, jumping, etc.) one must perform weight-training quickly is a common one, but it is not only incorrect but counterproductive.

If you can only train in ONE way to improve your performance in a given sport, do something that as closely resembles your sport as possible. If you wish to be a better boxer and can only train in one way, spar. If you wish to be a better high jumper and can only do one thing; practice high jumping. And so on.

If you can only do TWO things, however, practice your sport AND perform strength training in a manner that significantly strengthens the muscle groups used in the performance of your sport, and--if necessary--also provides a significant stimulus to the cardiovascular system (not necessary if one is high-jumping or putting the shot; necessary if one is boxing, wrestling, playing tennis, etc.).

I read the links now, thanks. It is interesting. Where Baye says, "The best way to increase force is not to rapidly accelerate, but to simply use a heavier weight. Doing so increases the tension over the full range of the exercise and not just during the initial acceleration"... this reminded me of the principles involved with isometric wall punches, where all stages of the punch are tested, would you say that's right? He also mentions 'intended' speed of reps--using heavy weight, and as you fatigue--being an important aspect of carry-over. I feel that it is a similar principle at play when running hill sprints with a vest on - during the later reps, it is a struggle to keep high cadence, but it is vital to at least 'attempt' to maintain a good tempo.

I guess one could argue that if Baye is right, then the strongest people in the world are the most powerful punchers, which is obviously wrong. But then, he makes the point that good form is a necessary precursor. I agree that form *****s everything else. One thing I cannot get my head around, though, is the conditioning aspect. Moving a light weight as many times as possible in three minutes seems intuitively more sport-specific for boxing, rather than moving a heavy weight as slowly as possible (I exaggerate but you get the point). Also, I am dumbfounded to think of all the boxing training I have witnessed where coaches have told us to 'Work fast' when working with light weights, e.g. shoulder presses, medicine ball crunches, etc. I mean, what is shadow-boxing with dumbells? Is that just a waste of time, then, according to what you are saying? Someone should tell GGG. Apologies if I have misread you.

I don't fundamentally disagree with what Baye is saying, but I would be reluctant to remove fast-reps at low-weight from a training schedule. A common feature of UK boxing gyms is a variant or other of a 'Ton-up': 10 sets of 10 different floor exercises, done as quickly as possible. At a certain level of fitness, these exercises get easier. So, at that point, you can either do more, or increase the resistance somehow. That is, using a weight vest is NOT for beginners, in any case - I mean, I would've hoped that was obvious. What Baye appears to be saying is that instead of slapping a weight vest on, at that point, go heavy and go slow with good form, and you will see: (a) increased benefits; (b) safer progress. Is that fair to say? I dunno, man, I'm just sceptical, I guess, mainly because of the conditioning aspect.

[GelfSara]

I read the links now, thanks. It is interesting. Where Baye says, "The best way to increase force is not to rapidly accelerate, but to simply use a heavier weight. Doing so increases the tension over the full range of the exercise and not just during the initial acceleration"... this reminded me of the principles involved with isometric wall punches, where all stages of the punch are tested, would you say that's right? He also mentions 'intended' speed of reps--using heavy weight, and as you fatigue--being an important aspect of carry-over. I feel that it is a similar principle at play when running hill sprints with a vest on - during the later reps, it is a struggle to keep high cadence, but it is vital to at least 'attempt' to maintain a good tempo.

I guess one could argue that if Baye is right, then the strongest people in the world are the most powerful punchers, which is obviously wrong. But then, he makes the point that good form is a necessary precursor. I agree that form *****s everything else. One thing I cannot get my head around, though, is the conditioning aspect. Moving a light weight as many times as possible in three minutes seems intuitively more sport-specific for boxing, rather than moving a heavy weight as slowly as possible (I exaggerate but you get the point). Also, I am dumbfounded to think of all the boxing training I have witnessed where coaches have told us to 'Work fast' when working with light weights, e.g. shoulder presses, medicine ball crunches, etc. I mean, what is shadow-boxing with dumbells? Is that just a waste of time, then, according to what you are saying? Someone should tell GGG. Apologies if I have misread you.

I don't fundamentally disagree with what Baye is saying, but I would be reluctant to remove fast-reps at low-weight from a training schedule. A common feature of UK boxing gyms is a variant or other of a 'Ton-up': 10 sets of 10 different floor exercises, done as quickly as possible. At a certain level of fitness, these exercises get easier. So, at that point, you can either do more, or increase the resistance somehow. That is, using a weight vest is NOT for beginners, in any case - I mean, I would've hoped that was obvious. What Baye appears to be saying is that instead of slapping a weight vest on, at that point, go heavy and go slow with good form, and you will see: (a) increased benefits; (b) safer progress. Is that fair to say? I dunno, man, I'm just sceptical, I guess, mainly because of the conditioning aspect.

WRT: "I guess one could argue that if Baye is right, then the strongest people in the world are the most powerful punchers, which is obviously wrong"

Neither Baye nor I would argue this; the physical characteristics which make one ideally suited to either powerlifting or Olympic weightlifting--the two sports most likely to yield a claimant to the "world's strongest man/woman" tag--are very different from the physical characteristics which make one ideally suited to boxing (or punching). One could replace "boxing" with "sprinting", "putting the shot", "long-jumping" and any number of other speed/power sports or events.

For example, in powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting, "shorter is better" as the smaller the distance one need move a weight during the performance of a lift the easier the lift is. Ed Coan--widely regarded as the greatest powerlifter of all time--was 5'6" tall while competing in the 242lb weight class. Olympic weightlifting legend Naim Süleymanoğlu, who competed at roughly 123-140bs, was 4'10" tall. This is obviously not the case with boxing.

What is true, of course, is that for a boxer to punch harder, for a sprinter to sprint faster, or for a powerlifter to lift heavier weights, IF one has already optimized technical aspects (form, learning to optimally contract, relax and coordinate the muscles used in the performance of one's sport, etc.) room for improvement is going to be found in strengthening the muscles used in the performance of one's event.

WRT conditioning: Circuit training is a fantastic method for improving strength and endurance simultaneously; however--perhaps because human beings are innately lazy--it is rarely performed properly; it is vastly more difficult to perform circuit training when one is using meaningful loads, training all major muscle groups, training to failure, and moving from exercise to exercise as quickly as possible than if one is using very light weights, not training to failure, resting between exercises, not training the entire body, etc. A great demonstration of the effectiveness of such circuit training was conducted at West Point in 1975--Project Total Conditioning:







An interview with John Turner on Project Total Conditioning:

[HeadBodyBodyBody]

WRT: "I guess one could argue that if Baye is right, then the strongest people in the world are the most powerful punchers, which is obviously wrong"

Neither Baye nor I would argue this; the physical characteristics which make one ideally suited to either powerlifting or Olympic weightlifting--the two sports most likely to yield a claimant to the "world's strongest man/woman" tag--are very different from the physical characteristics which make one ideally suited to boxing (or punching). One could replace "boxing" with "sprinting", "putting the shot", "long-jumping" and any number of other speed/power sports or events.

For example, in powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting, "shorter is better" as the smaller the distance one need move a weight during the performance of a lift the easier the lift is. Ed Coan--widely regarded as the greatest powerlifter of all time--was 5'6" tall while competing in the 242lb weight class. Olympic weightlifting legend Naim Süleymanoğlu, who competed at roughly 123-140bs, was 4'10" tall. This is obviously not the case with boxing.

What is true, of course, is that for a boxer to punch harder, for a sprinter to sprint faster, or for a powerlifter to lift heavier weights, IF one has already optimized technical aspects (form, learning to optimally contract, relax and coordinate the muscles used in the performance of one's sport, etc.) room for improvement is going to be found in strengthening the muscles used in the performance of one's event.

WRT conditioning: Circuit training is a fantastic method for improving strength and endurance simultaneously; however--perhaps because human beings are innately lazy--it is rarely performed properly; it is vastly more difficult to perform circuit training when one is using meaningful loads, training all major muscle groups, training to failure, and moving from exercise to exercise as quickly as possible than if one is using very light weights, not training to failure, resting between exercises, not training the entire body, etc. A great demonstration of the effectiveness of such circuit training was conducted at West Point in 1975--Project Total Conditioning:







An interview with John Turner on Project Total Conditioning:

Appreciate your response, thanks. We are all interested in the same end-goal, to be better boxers/athletes. I'll definitely be thinking about this more.

Just to add, there are the "old-school" techniques (i.e. skipping, sparring, running, bags, calisthenics), and the aversion to lifting heavy weights... it's hard to break out of that mindset. Also, I think a lot of boxers are instinctively tuned in to "work: 3 minutes / rest: 1minute" (or 30 seconds if you are Eubank Jr), so I wonder if this circuit method you speak of would work best in that format.

[GelfSara]

Appreciate your response, thanks. We are all interested in the same end-goal, to be better boxers/athletes. I'll definitely be thinking about this more.

Just to add, there are the "old-school" techniques (i.e. skipping, sparring, running, bags, calisthenics), and the aversion to lifting heavy weights... it's hard to break out of that mindset. Also, I think a lot of boxers are instinctively tuned in to "work: 3 minutes / rest: 1minute" (or 30 seconds if you are Eubank Jr), so I wonder if this circuit method you speak of would work best in that format.

Sparring 3 minute rounds and resting 1 minute between rounds is a better way to prepare for the specific task of doing this same thing on fight night than other ratios; when training the general components of fitness, however, one wishes to train in such a manner as to maximally improve these building blocks rather than focusing on the specific task one will eventually be "tested on" as emphasizing the specific will prevent maximal improvement in the general areas which underlie and limit performance of the specific.

To use an analogy from another sport: When middle-distance (800 & 1500 meter) runners first began training in a semi-organized fashion in the late 19th century, training typically resembled racing: hard time-trials, very low weekly mileage of high intensity. While such training was better than nothing, the progress runners of this era made was very limited; it was not until the 1960s that the success of Arthur Lydiard and his athletes awakened the running community to the reality that the performance of even 800 meter runners--an event lasting under 2 minutes-- was limited primarily by the athletes' aerobic system; that full development of this system required a large volume of work, and that such a volume of work could only be sustained over long periods of time if it was of relatively low intensity. Today, runners think nothing of a 1:43 800 runner going for a 90 minute run at 6+ minute/mile pace; however, when Lydiard first began coaching athletes the notion that runners competing in short, relatively fast events would benefit from a high volume of slow running was viewed as lunacy.

[Warrior Scholar]

rather than hit the bag wearing a weighted vest, weight your gloves.