Increasing strength.

[Rockin']

Steward and Miller know plenty about training theory, thats what they have done with their lives. You dont build champions by guessing and I highly doubt that they read books for the knowledge that they have. Hey, if the books work for you than good. But to say that these trainers dont know what they are talking about because the skill was passed to them and learned first hand is ridiculous. Your books make you feel superior, then stick with 'em, everybody has something that makes them tick. But please do not belittle these world class trainers because they may not follow your prescribed method.

All that I can say is that your the man, and the oldschool dont know ****. .............Rockin'

[Rockin']

All this is really besides the point, since they haven't really uttered their opinion on this. Until they do it's all speculation, that they'd even agree with you.

Tell you what punchdrunk,

I will go down and atleast see Bill because i know where he will be at. I will ask his opinion of it and get back. I dont know when I will run into Emmanuel, but when I do I will be certain to ask his opinion

Give me word for word the question that you would like me to ask them and then when I see them consider it done. I will post the reply regardless if it opposes what I may have said................Rockin'

[PunchDrunk]

I'm certainly not belittling anybody. I'm just saying that nobody knows everything, and you don't have to know everything about lifting weights to make world champion boxers. Especially since most trainers have discouraged their boxers from using weights. Back when world class sprinters didn't lift weights, I'm sure you could make a world class sprinter without weights. Would that be possible today? No way. (not saying that you have to, now or ever, use weights to make world class boxers. Boxing is much more complex than sprinting)

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, a great fighter could have been even better, if his training had been better? I'm certainly not saying that the old school doesn't know ****. They know LOADS more than I do. This is obvious, and I never claimed the opposite. I'm just saying that EVERYBODY can learn something new. If they don't know that low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power, well, then that's something they could learn to become even more masterful trainers.
Oh, be sure to ask the question right, don't just paint it out so they'll have to agree with you.
Here's my claim: "low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power"
As far as I've understood, your claim is this: "Low weight/lots of reps until you burn out is for strength"

[Rockin']

If they don't know that low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power, well, then that's something they could learn to become even more masterful trainers.
Oh, be sure to ask the question right, don't just paint it out so they'll have to agree with you.
Here's my claim: "low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power"
As far as I've understood, your claim is this: "Low weight/lots of reps until you burn out is for strength"

My claim is that low weights/high reps will build strength. Obviously not the same as if they were power lifting but it will build strength.

Here is my other claim, That pure strength is not needed in boxing. Endurance is. Proper execution is.

Tommy Hearns wasnt a weight lifter and he dropped people left and right. Boxing is not about pure strength. Its about setting your man up with the shots and then letting them fly.

I fought a power lifter when I was 16 years old. Just a skinny **** with big gloves on the end of my arms. I fought this guy that was 23 years old and big time ripped. I beat the hell out of him, gave him standing 8 counts and recieved none myself. The guy actually quit boxing after that fight. I went down to the sal and they said as soon as I walked in, hey you da boy dat made calvin quit..............Rockin'

[Rockin']

From August to December he still does heavy weights 2 times a week, besides all the other training. Now the other coach at my gym is of the old school, and he was very sceptical about weights, as are most boxing coaches (because they know jack **** about actual training theory, it's all "this is how we've always done it)

..........Rockin'

[PunchDrunk]

My claim is that low weights/high reps will build strength. Obviously not the same as if they were power lifting but it will build strength.

Here is my other claim, That pure strength is not needed in boxing. Endurance is. Proper execution is.

Tommy Hearns wasnt a weight lifter and he dropped people left and right. Boxing is not about pure strength. Its about setting your man up with the shots and then letting them fly.

I fought a power lifter when I was 16 years old. Just a skinny **** with big gloves on the end of my arms. I fought this guy that was 23 years old and big time ripped. I beat the hell out of him, gave him standing 8 counts and recieved none myself. The guy actually quit boxing after that fight. I went down to the sal and they said as soon as I walked in, hey you da boy dat made calvin quit..............Rockin'

What do you mean by pure strength? Maximum strength? Absolute strength? Relative strength?
Relative strength and explosive strength are important to boxing. Why relative strength? Obvious. There's a reason boxing goes by weight classes. If relative strength didn't matter, weight classes wouldn't be needed. A 98 lbs guy would be able to beat a 250 lbs guy. Not in the real world. That is relative strength. Now, in a set weight class, the stronger you are the better. This should be obvious to you.
Explosive strength is just as obvious. The faster you can accelerate your fists, the harder your punches (I know, I know, you need technique, but one doesn't exclude the other, you need both!).
And please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that these things are the only thing you need to be a good boxer. I'm fully aware that you need SKILL and ENDURANCE. Never said otherwise. What I'm saying is you need the FULL PACKAGE. Skill, endurance, power and speed. Endurance isn't power, like you seem to think. Endurance merely lets you keep the power you already have for longer in the fight.
One last thing: I never said you have to be a weight lifter to be a good fighter. I'm just saying that a good fighter might be a better fighter, if he does the right kind of weight training. Just like a good fighter who's never hit the pads in his life might become a better fighter if his trainer started using that tool in his training as well.

[Rockin']

This is my whole point on this debate. Lifting weights to improve strength is not bad, it is good. Lifting heavy weights to improve strenght is bad, not good for boxers. I dont disagree with lifting weights, I just disagree with the method and process that you suggest.

I believe that you are putting to much emphasise on the power category. Most of the best fighters in the world, when fighting with in their weight classes, dont lift heavy weights. The pull ups, the push ups and all of the cals are all that are really needed. Lifting heavy weights will increase your muscle mass as well as limiting your flexibility. Not to mention possibly requiring you to step up to another weight division.

This is the last post that I will do on the subject until I am able to ask Bill or Emmanuel about it. I welcome you to post a reply but I am done until I find the thoughts of the ones who have been there and done that for most of their lives...........Rockin'

[.::EnRiQuE::.]

if u want to gain strength do wat i do..........push-ups with you penis. it'll get you rock hard

[PunchDrunk]

This is my whole point on this debate. Lifting weights to improve strength is not bad, it is good. Lifting heavy weights to improve strenght is bad, not good for boxers. I dont disagree with lifting weights, I just disagree with the method and process that you suggest.

I believe that you are putting to much emphasise on the power category. Most of the best fighters in the world, when fighting with in their weight classes, dont lift heavy weights. The pull ups, the push ups and all of the cals are all that are really needed. Lifting heavy weights will increase your muscle mass as well as limiting your flexibility. Not to mention possibly requiring you to step up to another weight division.

This is the last post that I will do on the subject until I am able to ask Bill or Emmanuel about it. I welcome you to post a reply but I am done until I find the thoughts of the ones who have been there and done that for most of their lives...........Rockin'

Actually I think we're not that far from each other... Not every fighter needs to work heavy weights. Obviously Mike Tyson had all the power he needed. I have this welterweight who's real explosive, knockin' out people left and right. He doesn't get to touch the weights. Partly because he has a much hardere time keeping the weight off, but mostly because he needs to put his emphasis on other things, like technique.

Again, lifting heavy weights won't necessarily make you heavier, or limit your flexibility. It's all a matter of doing it the right way.

The reason why I put emphasis on the power, is not for boxing in general, but for weights in general. My point about the weights is that if you're gonna use them, use them for something you aren't already doing. To me, endurance work with weights is a waste of time, since you're already doing endurance work a thousand other ways that are more specific, and way better suited for boxing. Ie. heavybag, cals, mitts and so on.

I hope that cleared my position up a bit.

[Rockin']

Your good with me dude, we had a good and it seemed sometime heated debate, but we came through it with out throwing garbage at each other. And we both made good points on old school and new school theories. But the main thin is we kept it respectable. I commend you and myself on that......Rockin'