Floyd Mayweather is in my top 3 of all time let the hate begin!

[Johnwoo8686]

I could envisage both guys winning.

What does that have to do with my initial gripe?

My point is that guys of today's accomplishments hold up very well against the accomplishments of past fighters. You seem to argue that they don't.

[robertzimmerman]

My point is that guys of today's accomplishments hold up very well against the accomplishments of past fighters. You seem to argue that they don't.

No, once again, I'm just asking you to apply context.


If you think that Manny was a better fighter than Duran and that he achieved more, then that's fine. But at least offer an objective breakdown instead of just comparing numbers.

Here's what you wrote:

"Duran couldn't even win titles in 5 weight classes..."

That is so ignorant.

Let's for arguments sake say that he'd won titles in 6 weight classes.

Would you then still scoff at the notion that Duran could be ranked higher, because Manny would still be 2 ahead?

That's my issue with you.

Your ranking simply has to focus on who they fought and at what point.

That is the first thing that should be looked at when ranking someone, not what it says on BoxRec.

Do some digging.

Objectively analyse things.


Here's some more things that you have said which are silly:

"Oscar won titles in 5 weight classes, whereas Hagler only won titles in 1 weight class, therefore Oscar ranks higher"

Again, no context whatsoever. You've just compared 1 to 5.


"Most people rank Oscar higher than Hearns"

No they don't.


"Manny ranks higher than Hearns, therefore Floyd's win over Manny is better than Ray's win over Hearns"

Absolute nonsense. Because you have to focus on the specific versions of the fighters from those fights, and look at how big the challenge was for both Ray and Floyd at the time.

This is my issue with you.


Yes, Manny does rank higher than Hearns. I agree with you. But Ray still holds the better win. Why? Because of the following factors:


Manny was faded and was a shell of the fighter he'd been.

Floyd had a huge reach advantage.

Ray fought a peak version of Hearns.

Hearns was much bigger in terms of height and reach, and he was stronger with more power.

Ray switched tactics and knocked him out after a shootout, showing huge heart.


That's how you break down a win.

There's far more to it than just looking at who the better fighter was across their overall career.

Ray beating Hearns was just a bigger accomplishment.


Again, you haven't applied context in any of your posts.

It doesn't matter that Manny won titles in more divisions than Hearns.

It doesn't matter if most people rank Manny higher overall.

Ray's win over Hearns was better than Floyd's win over Manny, due to the above factors.


Let's compare Floyd and Hearns.

Who was the better fighter?

Who ranks higher?

I'm going to say Floyd.

However, that doesn't mean that Floyd would have beaten him in a H2H fight. So I'd very much like to see you being more objective and looking closer at things, instead of just comparing numbers from a database.

[boxinggod101]

Top 15-20 at best imo...and I am a fan

Hes up there for sure. I think people tend to overrate past fighters a biy too much like this era top guys wouldn't hang with them

[hugh grant]

If Floyd had of beat GGG then he might be deserving of top ten, even top 5.
But Floyd missed that ship. He missed Sergio. He always not there

[Bjl12]

Hes up there for sure. I think people tend to overrate past fighters a biy too much like this era top guys wouldn't hang with them

Floyd is a tough case because no way can he hang with best WW's ever, but WW wasn't his best weight anyways.

However, he fought so different at JLW and LW than he did WW so it's tough to gauge.

I personally believe Floyd is GOAT JLW ever. In terms of everything I have him around 15-20. Heck of a fighter no doubt, but he loses to ferocious aggressors who "bend" (or even break the rules) a little bit. For whatever reason he doesn't focus as well...see both JLC and MM fights. He wins, but it's clear he is more talented despite just edging those fights (JLC1 will always be debated).

[Bjl12]

My point is that guys of today's accomplishments hold up very well against the accomplishments of past fighters. You seem to argue that they don't.

Today's accomplishments are inflated and watered down. Being multi weight champion is meaningless since there are 4+ "champions" per weight class.

[djtmal]

If Floyd had of beat GGG then he might be deserving of top ten, even top 5.
But Floyd missed that ship. He missed Sergio. He always not there

give the man a break...its hard work to line up and beat berto, then conor mcgregor, you want him to fight a threat after that?

[Johnwoo8686]

No, once again, I'm just asking you to apply context.


If you think that Manny was a better fighter than Duran and that he achieved more, then that's fine. But at least offer an objective breakdown instead of just comparing numbers.

Here's what you wrote:

"Duran couldn't even win titles in 5 weight classes..."

That is so ignorant.

Let's for arguments sake say that he'd won titles in 6 weight classes.

Would you then still scoff at the notion that Duran could be ranked higher, because Manny would still be 2 ahead?

That's my issue with you.

Your ranking simply has to focus on who they fought and at what point.

That is the first thing that should be looked at when ranking someone, not what it says on BoxRec.

Do some digging.

Objectively analyse things.


Here's some more things that you have said which are silly:

"Oscar won titles in 5 weight classes, whereas Hagler only won titles in 1 weight class, therefore Oscar ranks higher"

Again, no context whatsoever. You've just compared 1 to 5.


"Most people rank Oscar higher than Hearns"

No they don't.


"Manny ranks higher than Hearns, therefore Floyd's win over Manny is better than Ray's win over Hearns"

Absolute nonsense. Because you have to focus on the specific versions of the fighters from those fights, and look at how big the challenge was for both Ray and Floyd at the time.

This is my issue with you.


Yes, Manny does rank higher than Hearns. I agree with you. But Ray still holds the better win. Why? Because of the following factors:


Manny was faded and was a shell of the fighter he'd been.

Floyd had a huge reach advantage.

Ray fought a peak version of Hearns.

Hearns was much bigger in terms of height and reach, and he was stronger with more power.

Ray switched tactics and knocked him out after a shootout, showing huge heart.


That's how you break down a win.

There's far more to it than just looking at who the better fighter was across their overall career.

Ray beating Hearns was just a bigger accomplishment.


Again, you haven't applied context in any of your posts.

It doesn't matter that Manny won titles in more divisions than Hearns.

It doesn't matter if most people rank Manny higher overall.

Ray's win over Hearns was better than Floyd's win over Manny, due to the above factors.


Let's compare Floyd and Hearns.

Who was the better fighter?

Who ranks higher?

I'm going to say Floyd.

However, that doesn't mean that Floyd would have beaten him in a H2H fight. So I'd very much like to see you being more objective and looking closer at things, instead of just comparing numbers from a database.

If Duran had won titles in 6 weight classes he most likely would have been ranked as high or higher than Manny but he didn't. You keep talking about context but what you really mean is biased opinion. Hearns was huge for welterweight but he has to be one of the chinniest All Time Great fighters I've ever seen. The guy was fast and strong but couldn't handle taking a big punch that well. If Hearns spent the majority of his career at the higher weight classes instead of fighting little 147 pounders he most likely would have lost even more times.

You keep saying Floyd and Manny would not have achieved the same level of success in the past eras as they did in this era but you have no way of knowing that 100 percent. You don't know how they would have fared in previous eras, you're just assuming what would have happened. What you're saying is based off of conjecture.

I even asked you who would win between a prime Duran and a prime Manny at 147 pounds and you said you could see each guy winning. Remember that welterweight was the second weight class Duran won a title in while it was Manny's 7th weight class! If Manny in his 7th weight class can arguably beat Duran in his second weight class than to me Manny is "pound for pound" the greater fighter.

[djtmal]

could floyd beat a prime mark breland @ ww...lol

[robertzimmerman]

Johnwoo8686,

If Duran had won titles in 6 weight classes he most likely would have been ranked as high or higher than Manny but he didn't. You keep talking about context but what you really mean is biased opinion. Hearns was huge for welterweight but he has to be one of the chinniest All Time Great fighters I've ever seen. The guy was fast and strong but couldn't handle taking a big punch that well. If Hearns spent the majority of his career at the higher weight classes instead of fighting little 147 pounders he most likely would have lost even more times.

A biased opinion?

Please!

You are the guy who thinks Floyd's win over Manny was better than Ray's win over Hearns, because Manny ranks higher than Hearns overall.

If you can't see how ridiculous that is, then you've got an awful lot to learn.

Again, you have also said that Oscar ranks higher than Marvin by just comparing numbers.

I'm not biased. It's you who's uneducated.

Regarding Hearns, of course he may have sustained more losses if he'd have fought at the higher weight classes. And that applies to absolutely anybody. He kept pushing himself fighting dangerous guys at the higher weights as he aged. But if he'd have stayed at JMW, he'd have taken some beating.

You keep saying Floyd and Manny would not have achieved the same level of success in the past eras as they did in this era but you have no way of knowing that 100 percent. You don't know how they would have fared in previous eras, you're just assuming what would have happened. What you're saying is based off of conjecture.

It's called an EDUCATED guess based on all of the evidence that is available.

Manny struggled with JMM 4 times.

Floyd struggled with Castillo and a faded Oscar.

So I think it's safe to say that Floyd wouldn't have gone unbeaten and Manny wouldn't have won titles in 8 divisions, had they have fought guys like Pryor, Benitez, McCallum and the 'Fab Four' etc.

You don't need to hire Columbo or possess a time machine to be certain.

If you have a functioning pair of eyes and an understanding of the sport, then you KNOW.

You know that Floyd's best weight wasn't WW. You know that he was a safety first fighter there. You know that he had hand issues. You've seen how Ray and Benitez struggled to outbox a guy like Hearns. So any knowledgeable fan knows that Floyd also wouldnt have been able to have outboxed him at 5'8. And you know full well that he didn't possess the power required to have outfought him. It's common sense. So yes, if Floyd had fought those types of guys when they were prime, logic tells you that he wouldn't have retired undefeated. And the exact same applies to Manny. If his road to winning titles in 8 divisions had seen him fight the likes of Ray and Hearns instead of guys like Cotto and Margarito, then it's absolutely obvious that he'd never have accomplished the same feat. And that isn't merely conjecture, again, it's logic.

I even asked you who would win between a prime Duran and a prime Manny at 147 pounds and you said you could see each guy winning. Remember that welterweight was the second weight class Duran won a title in while it was Manny's 7th weight class! If Manny in his 7th weight class can arguably beat Duran in his second weight class than to me Manny is "pound for pound" the greater fighter.

Again, I don't mind if you rate Manny higher. As long as you've been objective and your opinion isn't based purely on statistics. Manny was great. Yes, WW was his 7th division. But Duran started out 20 pounds lower than WW when he turned pro and there were less weight classes back then. Under different circumstances in the modern era, WW could have been his 4th weight class.

Whilst I can envisage Manny troubling Duran, I can't envisage him beating the other great WW's that I've mentioned.