I have a question, and I need some opinions

[saintpat]

I have no idea what the OP is trying to get at, and I doubt all of the information is 100 percent correct.

How do we know Gamache cut that much weight? And even if true, we obviously don't know if he did it over 3 months or 3 days.

Same with the rehydration figure. Exactly what time did he allegedly weigh again at 4-odd pounds over his scale weight? Is it possible he ate again after that?

If I cut 20 pounds over the next two months, I don't think I would necessarily gain a lot of weight in the next 24 hours ... if I did it gradually.

This was a horrible occurance, no doubt. But the mafia: What do they get out of killing all these people? It's not like they were going to make millions of dollars by rigging a weigh-in of a fight that nobody bet on.

Where does all this info come from? One guy, who may or may not have reason to twist facts to fit his narrative? How much of the "facts" in this scenario can be established outside of one guy's account? I mean, all of these people who died -- has the OP got the death certificates and explanations of causes of death? And in Gatti's case specifically, wouldn't it have been easier to get to him if someone wanted to kill him rather than in Brazil?

Why not post the video on youtube if it's so damning?

And, as someone asked, why not just kill Gamache?

Sorry OP, I know you wanted answers and not to be asked questions, but the black helicopters swirling around this thing beg a lot of questions.

So just one more: if the mob wants this guy dead, after all this time why isn't he dead? Surely if they can knock off everyone else than could take care of him.

[boxingnut712]

I have no idea what the OP is trying to get at, and I doubt all of the information is 100 percent correct.

How do we know Gamache cut that much weight? And even if true, we obviously don't know if he did it over 3 months or 3 days.

Same with the rehydration figure. Exactly what time did he allegedly weigh again at 4-odd pounds over his scale weight? Is it possible he ate again after that?

If I cut 20 pounds over the next two months, I don't think I would necessarily gain a lot of weight in the next 24 hours ... if I did it gradually.

This was a horrible occurance, no doubt. But the mafia: What do they get out of killing all these people? It's not like they were going to make millions of dollars by rigging a weigh-in of a fight that nobody bet on.

Where does all this info come from? One guy, who may or may not have reason to twist facts to fit his narrative? How much of the "facts" in this scenario can be established outside of one guy's account? I mean, all of these people who died -- has the OP got the death certificates and explanations of causes of death? And in Gatti's case specifically, wouldn't it have been easier to get to him if someone wanted to kill him rather than in Brazil?

Why not post the video on youtube if it's so damning?

And, as someone asked, why not just kill Gamache?

Sorry OP, I know you wanted answers and not to be asked questions, but the black helicopters swirling around this thing beg a lot of questions.

So just one more: if the mob wants this guy dead, after all this time why isn't he dead? Surely if they can knock off everyone else than could take care of him.

SaintPat, It was I whom suggested, or questioned why not just kill Gamache. As for Gamache's weight's they are in his court deposition which is all over the internet. When the court case ended so did the bodys that is unless the chariman of the New York State Athletic Commission in 2000 Mel Southard, and Johnny Bos the manager of Joey Gamache died of unnatural deaths a few years after. There is only so much information I can get on somebody's death, or near death, but since the 115 pound widow is solely responsible for killing Gatti which totally explains the deep strangulation marks in his neck, and size 12 footprints embed in his mid section right? Is this before, or after she supposedly paid off all of Brazil with about only 90 thousand dollars in assets.

I do not know who was all on the New York State Athletic Commission in 2000 outside of Mel Southard. This Szoke guy does, and he believes that the people responsible for the deaths are from the State of New York. He sent evidence to them, and a lot of other people up there. The New York Post did a damning story on all those commissioners they had working up there. Some 15 - 20 of them a night all kicking back there salaries to political big wigs.

Could be a story to this that just never came out. I came here asking about weights, and weight gains. Gamache claimed to have difficulty losing the last few pounds, so is it unreasonable to think that he would not have at least put on those couple pounds, and a little more then 4 3/4 pounds. I am asking these questions, and other questions because we are trying to verify what Szoke is saying.

If Gamache wins the fight there is not going to be any lawsuit. There isn't going to be anything in contrast that the boxing media has 2 world class fighters not making weight on the same afternoon. The commission banned Joey Gamache's manager. They did not suspend Gatti, or De La Hoya's boxing licenses for supposedly missing weight, so you tell me what in thee hell is going on here, and what is wrong with that picture. The Commission did not even give team Coley, or Team Gamache re weigh's, or a chance to compromise for more money. So I have to say that if something is not wrong with the scales in New York, and everybody just hangs themself, or passes out driving a car maybe you can explain that to me?

[boxingnut712]

Just finished watching those 3 fights...Gamache is a tough f^cker...

TripleGFightFan, Joey Gamache got blown away by Gatti, and Nazarov, but Joey Gamache certainly demonstrated toughness in his fights Chavez, and Lopez.


As for the HBO commentary before the Gatti fight, I do not know what all that is about. In this interview Gamache's manager starts talking about Gatti, the trial and how Johnny Bos thought that they would beat Gatti, and how Gatti could not beat a good boxer like Ivan Robinson, THEN

All black helicopters set a side it cuts out, and there it is over an hour of it missing.



If Gamache was going to beat Gatti, or even Chavez for that matter, he was not going to do it standing flat foot out on the end of their punches that is for sure. Chavez was even a bit older when he beat Gamache.

[boxingnut712]

I have no idea what the OP is trying to get at, and I doubt all of the information is 100 percent correct.

How do we know Gamache cut that much weight? And even if true, we obviously don't know if he did it over 3 months or 3 days.

Same with the rehydration figure. Exactly what time did he allegedly weigh again at 4-odd pounds over his scale weight? Is it possible he ate again after that?

If I cut 20 pounds over the next two months, I don't think I would necessarily gain a lot of weight in the next 24 hours ... if I did it gradually.

This was a horrible occurance, no doubt. But the mafia: What do they get out of killing all these people? It's not like they were going to make millions of dollars by rigging a weigh-in of a fight that nobody bet on.

Where does all this info come from? One guy, who may or may not have reason to twist facts to fit his narrative? How much of the "facts" in this scenario can be established outside of one guy's account? I mean, all of these people who died -- has the OP got the death certificates and explanations of causes of death? And in Gatti's case specifically, wouldn't it have been easier to get to him if someone wanted to kill him rather than in Brazil?

Why not post the video on youtube if it's so damning?

And, as someone asked, why not just kill Gamache?

Sorry OP, I know you wanted answers and not to be asked questions, but the black helicopters swirling around this thing beg a lot of questions.

So just one more: if the mob wants this guy dead, after all this time why isn't he dead? Surely if they can knock off everyone else than could take care of him.

Saintpat, I do not have morgue reports on the people that passed away. I have newspaper articles. The first judge that declined the case, and Michael Coyle, whom was Joey Gamache's second lawyer, were found hung like Gatti. Gatti obviously found hung in Brazil. I do not have information on how Tony Russo died. Harper, and Rosario died of carbon monoxide poisoning behind the wheel of their cars. Szoke obviously survived. The guy whom got them into the weigh in through the New York City Police Department died in the 9/11 attacks, and is not related.

[ИATAS]

Gatti may well have been murdered, but that doesn't mean its tied back to this. The motive would seem to be his wife wanting all of his money and he had changed his will with his wife just a few weeks prior. I remember a claims investigater, unrelated to this case, saying he was always highly su****ious of claims where the deceased died in a foreign country, especially in Latin America where it's easy to pay off people to stage a suicide or accident and it's extremely difficult for the claims investigators to conduct a proper investigation.

Anyways, I don't see how Gatti's is related nor do I see how multiple people would end up being murdered over a small time fight and scales. People have tampered with scales in boxing probably since the time of scales. I know you came here asking specific questions about weight, but you are the one who mentioned all of this conspiracy talk so if you don't mind, provide some links so what you're saying makes more sense.

[boxingnut712]

Gatti may well have been murdered, but that doesn't mean its tied back to this. The motive would seem to be his wife wanting all of his money and he had changed his will with his wife just a few weeks prior. I remember a claims investigater, unrelated to this case, saying he was always highly su****ious of claims where the deceased died in a foreign country, especially in Latin America where it's easy to pay off people to stage a suicide or accident and it's extremely difficult for the claims investigators to conduct a proper investigation.

Anyways, I don't see how Gatti's is related nor do I see how multiple people would end up being murdered over a small time fight and scales. People have tampered with scales in boxing probably since the time of scales. I know you came here asking specific questions about weight, but you are the one who mentioned all of this conspiracy talk so if you don't mind, provide some links so what you're saying makes more sense.

At the point in which Gatti is found dead he is set to testify in 48 to 72 hours in the Joey Gamache trial. I am trying to verify information about these claims. That is about the only thing that I have that could possible tie his death to New York

The problem with Gatti's death in Brazil is everyone seemingly has a different version of the story as to what went on down there. The reason you never heard much of this Szoke believes they are trying to keep this information from that woman. It is Szoke whom contacted Gatti's people, and claims to get zero answers, and no cooperation. He has telephone records that he called people like Hector Rocha at Gleasons gym, Gary Shaw, and postal records that he contacted his management. Szoke says that they all claimed to have signed confidentiality clauses, and could not talk about anything.

90 thousand dollars of assets is not going to be enough for that woman to pay hitmen, pay off the police, hotel staff, the corner, and witnesses. Think about it.

I am not saying she is innocent. Szoke believes that this woman had the will changed, and led someone there to them. I can not get things like bank, telephone, or mail records unless they are given to me, or without a court order.

I will agree with you in saying that I do not know how anyone planned to get money out of this thing in New York in the first place. As I said in a previous post no one ever got anything out of the Resto - Collins fiasco up there. What I will say is that Szoke claims that the video tapes that were sent to New York would have given Gatti, and possibly Paul Ingle counter civil rights, and negligence lawsuits for changing the weigh in's back to the day of the fight when doctors are saying that fighters should be weighed in the day before the fight

[Jc8804]

Why is this cover up so important for all these people to be murdered OP ?

[boxingnut712]

Why is this cover up so important for all these people to be murdered OP ?

I will get an answer for you.

[saintpat]

If you have newspaper reports on cause of death of all of these people (Gatti aside, as the myriad reports on that are easy to find), please scan and post them or link to them so we can see.

There's too much scattershot claims and "information" posted by the OP not backed up by anything other that what he says someone else (presuming the OP is not Szoke) claims.

But there are too many gaps and holes in this info and no cohesive theory to tie it all together for me to gather exactly what is being alleged here.

Saying one had difficulty losing the last 5-6 pounds doesn't mean that the difficulty occured in the last day or so. If I had to lose 15 pounds in the next three weeks, for instance, knowing this from experience, the first 10 of that would probably come off in 10 days if I really limited my diet and upped my exercise. The next 5-6 would come much more slowly. But if I did this over time, I wouldn't expect to blow back up after losing 5-6 pounds in 2 weeks ... yet those 5-6 would be difficult and come off more slowly.

I get the feeling the OP/Szoke are alleging that the tinkered scale was such that Gamache actually weighed in much lighter, like at 135, and really rehydrated 10-12 pounds instead of 4 or 5.

That seems unlikely, as Gamache had been fighting as high as 157 and never lower than 147 in the 2 years (encompassing eight fights, a decent sample size) previous to the Gatti fight.

The idea is that Gatti lost a lot of weight and rehydrated ... yet Gamache was coming down farther from his normal fighting weight than Gatti -- he was fighting in the 130s for some time leading into the bout and moving up in weight.

Perhaps Gamache didn't know how to rehydrate -- if he's drinking water (yes, a gallon of water weighs a lot but it also exits the body when he takes a piss, so the weight would be lost soon after it was gained) and Gatti is taking IVs, rehydrating tissue rather than relying on the stomach to absorb and distribute the fluids ... well, that's why guys who cut weight use IVs to rehydrate, it's more immediate and efficient.

I'm still also trying to figure the mob's angle on this. Yes, mobsters order hits and kill people (but by hanging?), but they have to have a reason to do so -- someone is going to testify and have them put in jail, someone is muscling in on their territory, someone is going to cost them a lot of money. So please, OP, explain their interest in killing an awful lot of people over this ... were they underwriting the NYSAC and going to have to pay off if Gamache won a big judgment in his lawsuit? No, they weren't. So what motivates the mob to kill a bunch of people over a lawsuit against a state agency?

[boxingnut712]

If you have newspaper reports on cause of death of all of these people (Gatti aside, as the myriad reports on that are easy to find), please scan and post them or link to them so we can see.

There's too much scattershot claims and "information" posted by the OP not backed up by anything other that what he says someone else (presuming the OP is not Szoke) claims.

But there are too many gaps and holes in this info and no cohesive theory to tie it all together for me to gather exactly what is being alleged here.

Saying one had difficulty losing the last 5-6 pounds doesn't mean that the difficulty occured in the last day or so. If I had to lose 15 pounds in the next three weeks, for instance, knowing this from experience, the first 10 of that would probably come off in 10 days if I really limited my diet and upped my exercise. The next 5-6 would come much more slowly. But if I did this over time, I wouldn't expect to blow back up after losing 5-6 pounds in 2 weeks ... yet those 5-6 would be difficult and come off more slowly.

I get the feeling the OP/Szoke are alleging that the tinkered scale was such that Gamache actually weighed in much lighter, like at 135, and really rehydrated 10-12 pounds instead of 4 or 5.

That seems unlikely, as Gamache had been fighting as high as 157 and never lower than 147 in the 2 years (encompassing eight fights, a decent sample size) previous to the Gatti fight.

The idea is that Gatti lost a lot of weight and rehydrated ... yet Gamache was coming down farther from his normal fighting weight than Gatti -- he was fighting in the 130s for some time leading into the bout and moving up in weight.

Perhaps Gamache didn't know how to rehydrate -- if he's drinking water (yes, a gallon of water weighs a lot but it also exits the body when he takes a piss, so the weight would be lost soon after it was gained) and Gatti is taking IVs, rehydrating tissue rather than relying on the stomach to absorb and distribute the fluids ... well, that's why guys who cut weight use IVs to rehydrate, it's more immediate and efficient.

I'm still also trying to figure the mob's angle on this. Yes, mobsters order hits and kill people (but by hanging?), but they have to have a reason to do so -- someone is going to testify and have them put in jail, someone is muscling in on their territory, someone is going to cost them a lot of money. So please, OP, explain their interest in killing an awful lot of people over this ... were they underwriting the NYSAC and going to have to pay off if Gamache won a big judgment in his lawsuit? No, they weren't. So what motivates the mob to kill a bunch of people over a lawsuit against a state agency?

SaintPat, Bub bloody well slow down. I am not MI 6, or Scotland Yard already. It is questions like yours that have escalated this into what this has become, and more information being thrown out here then what can be confirmed. I have not had a proper chance to look into 90 % of this. As far as the the world is concerned a boxing commissioner, a boxer, an attorney, a judge, and 4 fight fights are dead. What are you going to come back here with next that I think 9/11 is tied to the Arturo Gatti v Joey Gamache fight because a New York City fire fighter got himself, and his 3 friends into a weigh in through another friend in the police department. You want more details call Joey Gamache, Team Gatti, or the New York State Athletic Commission.
For christ sakes I been here for about for about four days asking for imput, and you expect me to know every answer to your every question when I am backing in February of 2000 asking questions about the weigh in, and rehydration process. You not exactly answering any of our quetion, but instead you are asking more details from me that I can not confirm as of yet. I have details, but these details are unconfirmed.
So back in November of 1999, Joey Gamache goes to Lou DiBella, and HBO asking for the Gatti fight. The fight is agreed upon by early to mid december to take place at Madison Square Garden in New York. Joey Gamache enters his camp at around 160 LBs to which he sheds 18 - 20 pounds at some point to make 140 1/4. Arturo Gatti notorious for cutting weight, and then readding, it enters his camp at around 170 pounds, then shed what we are expect to believe is 29 pounds to make 141, but we do not really know for sure because the scale never balances.

We don't know how Gamache shed his 20 pounds, but what we know are that the last few pounds are difficult to shed, and are killer. We know this because Gamache told us. We know that Joey's manager Johnny Bos said that he weighed Joey at the New York State Athletic Commission's office where they were for a physical at 1 PM on friday afternoon February 25th, 2000. Bos said Gamache weighed 140 1/4 at the Commission Office they go down to the garden for the weigh in where they are expecting to meet HBO for an interview, or the fighter meetings. HBO is not there, but across the street at a hotel believed to be the Southgate hotel. While at the Garden they decide they are going to check their weights around an hour before the real thing. Now all of a sudden a strange thing happens. Joey Gamache now weighs 137 1/2 pounds. The scale is taken back, and brought back out. Now Gamache weighs 140 1/4 again. They leave to go across the street to meet HBO, and come back for the real thing. In approximately 3 hours time they do a some walking in the cold of February. Maybe Gamache goes to the bathroom once, but comes back, and still weighs 140 1/4 pounds, and does not shed an ounce in 3 hours, or so. None is really sure as to what Arturo Gatti weigh is because the scale never balances out, but his weight is recorded at 141 pounds. Prior to this Oscar De La Hoya apprears to miss his weight, but it is called at 147 pounds. What Derrell Coley weighs I am not sure of but the numbers of 143 1/2, 145, 146, and 147 have been all thrown around? 4 fight fans at the weigh in leave thinking something is not right, but leave the event. The next night on HBO. Gamache rehydrates him 4 3/4 pounds unofficially because this weight was recorded by HBO. Gatti's weight unofficially recorded by HBO at 160, or 161 pounds. The fight takes place, and Joey Gamache is smashed into retirement in around 80 seconds. Joey Gamache leaves the hospital crying foul, and announces intent to sue everyone from Time Warner, to Oscar De La Hoya, to Gatti, and The New York State Athletic Commission.
At this point in time I am pointing out Gamache rehydrates a small amount of weight 4 3/4 Pounds. My thinking from my knowledge of the sport of boxing is that Gamache knowing full well Gatti rehydrates a significant amount of weight would have rehydrated himself better, but 4 3/4 pounds is all Gamache added.
My question was is this possible, but without knowing details of how Gamache lost the weight it seems like an impossible question to answer, but at the same time I suppose not everyone goes to the all you can eat buffet every hour on the hour like Arturo Gatti.
In the aftermath of this fight a public outcry was launched against Arturo Gatti. Many people launch an investigation into the New York State Athletic Commission including the New York Post. In Gatti's next fight 60 some odd days later when they show up early to check their weights they are met with a scale that might have been used to weigh Joe Louis that is under lock, and key.
Now no one is dead, or injured yet other then maybe Gamache, and Paul Ingle. No is being accused of phony lawsuits yet, there are not people in New Jersey, and Canada bitter over the loss of millions of dollars. No one knows of Gamache's financial sitaution, or woes of a failed restaurant bid. No one cares about a bunch of fight fans.
Why Doesn't Gamache rehydrate better, and if he believed something is wrong why doesn't Gamache back out of the fight ?
Thus far team Matthysse, and Redd Foxx have given the most useful responses.
I don't see how anyone gets money out of this in the first place, and despite all the other details that I have yet to investigate I am not sure if I want to purse this further. Maybe depending on the jury, or judge, but I don't see it. Gamache refused mediccal attention. Gamache demanded to walk out of the ring on his feet. Gamache took a fight to which he thought there was a known problem. I just don't see a case there.