Comments Thread For: No Reward for Robbery: BScene Pound-for-Pound Update

[crold1]

And what was his exact reasoning for putting a shot p4p loser at #1?

First, to all, I posted earlier I had May-Cotto 116-112. Went back and looked at it was 15-13. I knew my post changed it up a round when I watched it again. My bad. I had it a little close than some either way.

Anyhoo...

Here was what I noted about Pac before Bradley in the old list:

The Take: While his last time out was a hotly debated call against Marquez, Pacquiao is 9-0 versus Mayweather’s 3-0 since 2008. While that includes a Mayweather retirement, and another lengthy layoff, the greater activity and similar level of foe keeps Pacquiao a step ahead. Now 33, and talking about callings from above, one wonders how much more Pacquiao really has left with a style that relies on speed and activity. Timothy Bradley, the best Junior Welterweight in the World, will be a demanding test and Pacquiao could find defeat waiting for the first time since Erik Morales in 2005.

In recent years, they've each had varying levels of dominance against similar foes outside Marquez worth debating. I think each of their last fights was mutually challenging and I wrote well beforehand how much respect I had for both matches. They both won comfortably on my card. I see no reason to shift their spots. The biggest threat to shift up isn't one of the big two but Ward if he really dominates Dawson. Given his age and ring IQ, he may already be the best in the game.

I sparked plenty of debate. That's all P4P is good for so sweet. As to "Top Rank" rumors, I don't make nearly enough from boxing writing to sell my integrity, especially not for something as silly as a P4P list.

[£-4-£]

1. Mayweather
2. JMM
3. Pac
4. Ward
5. Martinez
6. Donaire
7. Dawson
8. Froch
9. Bradley
10. Moreno

[BoxingGenius27]

Cliff, how did you see rounds 7-12 of the Bradley fight playing out?

[crold1]

Cliff, how did you see rounds 7-12 of the Bradley fight playing out?

Split em. Here's the RbR I did for CBZ live (I since think I could flip 2 and 8. more firm on 8 should have been for Pac).

Round One

Bradley lands a a clean right after both peck at body...Another right...TB blocks an left...TB right and two to the body...Pac to the body...Pac with a hard right...Another late...closes scoring gap but I lean TB.

10-9 Bradley

Round Two

Big right for Pac...Again...Bradley to the body in the clinch...Pac with a hard left...Pac jab...and a left to the body...Bradley right backs him off...Glancing Bradley right...Pac glancing left...blocks 3 from TB...Exchange lefts. Pac round.

Even 19-19

Round Three

Pac blocks a rush combo at the bell...Quick Pac left...Left hook for TB...Pac right, clinch, both whacking...Pac left...Again and hard...Bradley struggling to land...Bradley hard to the ribs...Pac to the body...Two Pac lefts and TB holds near the ropes...Right for TB and Pac back with two lefts...Bradley hooking at the bell.

Pacquiao 29-28

Round Four

Bradley digging body early...Long clinch...Another Bradley left to the body...Awkward exchange and Bradley still going ribs...Pac right hook...Pac three lefts, mostly blocked...TB flurry, all blocked...Manny to the body and then a flurry, right hook, Bradley wobbled and holds...Bradley fighting back and being nailed with rights...Bradley lands a big right at the bell.

Pacquiao 39-37

Round Five

Bradley looking like he's lost some steam...Pac right...Another and left glances behind it...Bradley two pawing rights...Pac misses two...Exchange, Pac with another right...Pac left wobbles TB...TB ties up near the ropes...Furious exchange to close, TB flailing with big heart but getting blasted.

Pacquiao 49-46

Round Six

Pac cool as clean sheets in there...Bradey boxing well through two...Pac with left to the body...two to the head...TB trapped in the corner and comes out into a clinch...Pac big left uppercut...Pawing Pac left to close.

Pacquiao 59-55

Round Seven

Pac holding while TB whacks the body...TB long right to the belly...Pac with a snaking left...Great exchange and both land some good shots...Pac left and TB rocks...headbutt in there but no biggie...TB misses a right late.

Pacquiao 69-64

Round Eight

Manny misses a left and eats two hard to the ribs...accidental butt, pause, no cut...Pac left bombs...TB with a right, Pac goes to the ropes...Pac blasts off with a quick shot...Dull round...TB a little more active.

Pacquiao 78-74

Round Nine

Some smirmish blows...TB slips, Pac chases, nothing happening here...Pac three flush lefts...Pac lands about four shots inside...Pac uppercut...TB to the body and an uppercut...TB combo through the gloves...Pac left through the gloves...Pac two lefts in an exchange...TB showing balls and beard but not winning rounds.

88-83

Round Ten

TB boxing, moving...Pac doesn't pursue much and TB with some nice rights...boos in the crowd. TB round.

97-93

Round Eleven

Pac with better power shots...TB with more activity...the bombs count.

Pac 107-102

Round Twelve

Bradley boxing well...Pac looking for a big shot to close and TB taking the points. Moral victory ending but Pac had this won long ago...Considering quality of foe, probably his best since Cotto but he slowed down late.

Pac 116-112

[Frogs!]

see cliff, it's really quite fascinating how quickly ppl question someone's integrity when an opinion doesn't line up with their own.

as always, thanks for defending your stance.

props!

[crold1]

see cliff, it's really quite fascinating how quickly ppl question someone's integrity when an opinion doesn't line up with their own.

as always, thanks for defending your stance.

props!

No one agrees with anyone all the time. Boxing evokes passion and provokes spirited argument. It's all good. When Pac really loses a fight, there will be people saying "exposed" even though he's had 14+ years as a championship level guy. Same with May. Same when Hopkins lost to Taylor.

Think how much hate would have oozed on the net if it was around for Norris-Leonard.

O
M
G

I got no beef with ANYONE who sees this different. It's hair splitting at this level of the game.

[Frogs!]

No one agrees with anyone all the time. Boxing evokes passion and provokes spirited argument. It's all good. When Pac really loses a fight, there will be people saying "exposed" even though he's had 14+ years as a championship level guy. Same with May. Same when Hopkins lost to Taylor.

Think how much hate would have oozed on the net if it was around for Norris-Leonard.

O
M
G

I got no beef with ANYONE who sees this different. It's hair splitting at this level of the game.

i agree with your assessment of ward.

if he dominates dawson, he should move up to #1.

[BoxingGenius27]

Split em. Here's the RbR I did for CBZ live (I since think I could flip 2 and 8. more firm on 8 should have been for Pac).

Round One

Bradley lands a a clean right after both peck at body...Another right...TB blocks an left...TB right and two to the body...Pac to the body...Pac with a hard right...Another late...closes scoring gap but I lean TB.

10-9 Bradley

Round Two

Big right for Pac...Again...Bradley to the body in the clinch...Pac with a hard left...Pac jab...and a left to the body...Bradley right backs him off...Glancing Bradley right...Pac glancing left...blocks 3 from TB...Exchange lefts. Pac round.

Even 19-19

Round Three

Pac blocks a rush combo at the bell...Quick Pac left...Left hook for TB...Pac right, clinch, both whacking...Pac left...Again and hard...Bradley struggling to land...Bradley hard to the ribs...Pac to the body...Two Pac lefts and TB holds near the ropes...Right for TB and Pac back with two lefts...Bradley hooking at the bell.

Pacquiao 29-28

Round Four

Bradley digging body early...Long clinch...Another Bradley left to the body...Awkward exchange and Bradley still going ribs...Pac right hook...Pac three lefts, mostly blocked...TB flurry, all blocked...Manny to the body and then a flurry, right hook, Bradley wobbled and holds...Bradley fighting back and being nailed with rights...Bradley lands a big right at the bell.

Pacquiao 39-37

Round Five

Bradley looking like he's lost some steam...Pac right...Another and left glances behind it...Bradley two pawing rights...Pac misses two...Exchange, Pac with another right...Pac left wobbles TB...TB ties up near the ropes...Furious exchange to close, TB flailing with big heart but getting blasted.

Pacquiao 49-46

Round Six

Pac cool as clean sheets in there...Bradey boxing well through two...Pac with left to the body...two to the head...TB trapped in the corner and comes out into a clinch...Pac big left uppercut...Pawing Pac left to close.

Pacquiao 59-55

Round Seven

Pac holding while TB whacks the body...TB long right to the belly...Pac with a snaking left...Great exchange and both land some good shots...Pac left and TB rocks...headbutt in there but no biggie...TB misses a right late.

Pacquiao 69-64

Round Eight

Manny misses a left and eats two hard to the ribs...accidental butt, pause, no cut...Pac left bombs...TB with a right, Pac goes to the ropes...Pac blasts off with a quick shot...Dull round...TB a little more active.

Pacquiao 78-74

Round Nine

Some smirmish blows...TB slips, Pac chases, nothing happening here...Pac three flush lefts...Pac lands about four shots inside...Pac uppercut...TB to the body and an uppercut...TB combo through the gloves...Pac left through the gloves...Pac two lefts in an exchange...TB showing balls and beard but not winning rounds.

88-83

Round Ten

TB boxing, moving...Pac doesn't pursue much and TB with some nice rights...boos in the crowd. TB round.

97-93

Round Eleven

Pac with better power shots...TB with more activity...the bombs count.

Pac 107-102

Round Twelve

Bradley boxing well...Pac looking for a big shot to close and TB taking the points. Moral victory ending but Pac had this won long ago...Considering quality of foe, probably his best since Cotto but he slowed down late.

Pac 116-112

I couldn't disagree more Cliff.

I had round 1 a draw (originally I gave it to TB), but gave Bradley the 3rd.

The majority of the rounds started with Bradley winning the first 2 minutes of the majority of the rounds. If you think Pac stole those rounds with 1-2 big punches landed, I would say that's where we're disagreeing. Bradley was much more active, especially to the body. Pac would land 1 or 2 flashy blows, but Bradley's activity to the body and head (sound off) was doing it for me.

Then when you talk about the exchanges, if you look closely, everytime they got into an exchange (pick a round), Bradley had already outlanded Pac and was winning the fight leading up to that point. Problem is, when Pac would land, Bradley would come back and double it either to the body or head.

If you watch the fight with the volume on, you wouldn't realize that because of the crowd and commentary.

[BoxingGenius27]

@ IronBoat

The problem is Cliff thinks Pac beat Marquez.

[crold1]

I couldn't disagree more Cliff.

I had round 1 a draw (originally I gave it to TB), but gave Bradley the 3rd.

The majority of the rounds started with Bradley winning the first 2 minutes of each round. If you think Pac stole those rounds with 1-2 big punches landed, I would say that's where we're disagreeing. Bradley was much more active, especially to the body. Pac would land 1 or 2 flashy blows, but Bradley's activity to the body and head (sound off) was doing it for me.

Then when you talk about the exchanges, if you look closely, everytime they got into an exchange (pick a round), Bradley had already outlanded Pac and was winning the fight leading up to that point. Problem is, when Pac would land, Bradley would come back and double it either to the body or head.

If you watch the fight with the volume on, you wouldn't realize that because of the crowd and commentary.

Dude, I can't hear commentary when I'm watching a fight. Has no affect whatsover. Had no affect on the overwhelming majority of ringside media either. I've seen thousands of fights and disagree with scoring off TV all the time. Three wasn't close at all IMO. So be it. The fight was a little like McCallum-Toney II in that one guy did his best work in the last minute. Bread Edwards over at BTalk said this in his mailbag today and it sums up my thinking to some degree:

For the record, NO I will not re-score or re-watch the fight with the sound off. No, I won’t watch the first 2 minutes of the rounds then go to the next round. All of those things are ridiculous and let me tell you why. When you do that, you can always come up with some justification why a fighter won a round or not, especially with top notch fighters. They will almost always do something within a round that displays the four points of scoring. The fighter that COMMANDED the MOMENT as it happened should be the winner of each round.

I also don’t want to hear that Manny only fought the last part of the rounds. If Manny was more effective in his 30 seconds of assertion than Bradley was in his 2:30, then Manny is the winner of that round. If you have a salary job and you can get your work done in 4 hours and it takes your counterparts a whole 8 hour day to do it, then you are the better more efficient worker. Period.

I have rescored because I watched again with a relative who missed it. Saw it wider for Pac the second time. I realized Bradley was doing good work all night. I thought HBO was high at 11-1. I thought Pac's work was better and much sharper. He boxed as well as he has in years against a very good fighter who was not going to drop.