Is boots ennis a top 10 p4p fighter in october 2022?

[SteveM]

Yes!!! Obviously this is subjective but my criteria say yes he is!

And here is why?

I judge my p4P based on who would win if they were all the same weight and fought right now. I base that on my eye test and their form the last 2-3 fights plus competition level*****

***** - the asterisks are really important! Sometimes, as in Ennis' case and also Ortiz and other prospects like Keyshawn - they haven't fought top competition. So then I use my decades of experience in to play. I know Ennis hasn't been tested so when he wins it comes down to how dominant is he and what skills is he showing.

But you're all gonna say " but he's knocking out bums " orwords to that effect. But - get alife - and think! Didn;'t we see other fighters coming up years ago? Didn't we see Errol Spence in a similar situation when he was demolishing the Chris van Heerdens and Chris Algieris ? Didn't Errol look dominant.

I'm saying that Boots is more dominant against this level of fighter than Errol was back in the day. Plus, he's more athletic than Errol was or is and can fight in more ways.

Canelo has dropped off against Bivol and Golovkin.
Spence is doing good - he did great against Ugas.
Bud is doing fine too.
Inoue too.
Usyk - damn good boxer.
Haney looking good
Shakur too.
Jermell all good.
But not one of them has the skills that Boots has - Boots needs a fight against Stanionis, Thurman, Bud or Errol to really shine - he won't be as dominant but he'll win easily (Thurman) be on an equal footing with Bud and Errol - and nobody is arguing that Bud and Errol shouldn't be P4P

Let the debate commence :-)

[The Ninth Layer]

I tend to think of P4P as comprising proven accomplishment in the ring, boxing skill or ability to execute a winning plan, and style or excitement factor, weighed in roughly that order. So Boots wouldn't make my top 10 as he's still missing a signature accomplishment. But if I were to leave the record component out he would absolutely be in my top 3 if not the outright 1. I've never seen a guy move into punches like him, he's always in a position to throw something devastating and then he throws devastating punches every time. Very excited to see how his career pans out.

[SteveM]

I tend to think of P4P as comprising proven accomplishment in the ring, boxing skill or ability to execute a winning plan, and style or excitement factor, weighed in roughly that order. So Boots wouldn't make my top 10 as he's still missing a signature accomplishment. But if I were to leave the record component out he would absolutely be in my top 3 if not the outright 1. I've never seen a guy move into punches like him, he's always in a position to throw something devastating and then he throws devastating punches every time. Very excited to see how his career pans out.

the trouble with 'proven accomplishment in the ring' is that it makes total sense on a theoretical level but not on a practical level, not these days.
Fighters these days are so inactive that we are lucky to get 2 fights a year and actually 4 fights in 3 years is more like it and likely one of those is a stay busy - case in point Bud vs Avanesyan.
My P4P doesn't stay the same for months at a time - you're as good as your last two fights and because my eye test doesn't often let me down then if you pass my eye test by totally wiping the floor in a step-up fight or in other words vastly exceeding expectations - then you are climbing my p4p.

Canelo was in my top ten p4p prior to the Bivol fight - now after failing to get a stoppage against a very poor Golovkin he is NOT in my p4p. But, who knows, a couple of good performances and he will be back in.

Me too! Totally agree with this. Comparisons with RJJ raw ability are justified - now he needs to go get those signature victories.

[Silence]

That Boots suckers should get kicked their a$$ off too. Another level idiocy.

[SteveM]

That Boots suckers should get kicked their a$$ off too. Another level idiocy.

I just want to deal with your translator

[The Ninth Layer]

the trouble with 'proven accomplishment in the ring' is that it makes total sense on a theoretical level but not on a practical level, not these days.
Fighters these days are so inactive that we are lucky to get 2 fights a year and actually 4 fights in 3 years is more like it and likely one of those is a stay busy - case in point Bud vs Avanesyan.
My P4P doesn't stay the same for months at a time - you're as good as your last two fights and because my eye test doesn't often let me down then if you pass my eye test by totally wiping the floor in a step-up fight or in other words vastly exceeding expectations - then you are climbing my p4p.

Canelo was in my top ten p4p prior to the Bivol fight - now after failing to get a stoppage against a very poor Golovkin he is NOT in my p4p. But, who knows, a couple of good performances and he will be back in.

Me too! Totally agree with this. Comparisons with RJJ raw ability are justified - now he needs to go get those signature victories.

My feeling is that fighters represent ongoing projects. Boxing isn't the NBA where you have 82 data points a year to judge teams and set up power rankings. I guess I could see a vision of p4p that is essentially a "power rankings" or "trending/hot fighters" list. But imo, a fighter is as good as every winning performance they've had in their past until proven otherwise.

For example my own personal list would have Canelo at the top with a pretty clear lead because the "project" of Canelo as a fighter has been extremely successful across several years and against a variety of top fighters with diverse styles. He's not just someone I -think- would beat a variety of current competitors across weight divisions, he's already proven he can. I still have him at the top spot despite the Bivol loss because while it was a bad style matchup Canelo failed to adjust to, it was also a fight against arguably the best guy at a division seven pounds up from where he's competed over the last couple years... not to mention about four divisions up from where his career began!! And while he failed to knock out Golvokin, I don't see that as a knock on Canelo. Golovkin himself had a strong claim to the top pound for pound spot just a few years ago, he's one of the best to ever fight and even at 40 years old is still very good. And that was the first fight I personally feel Golovkin lost cleanly (I think he beat Canelo in their first two).

Is Canelo "trending down" now that he lost to Bivol and didn't dispatch Golovkin? Maybe... but he's got a loooong way down for me to not have him ranked on my pound for pound list. His career has been exceptional and I expect that to continue for some time. At least until someone proves me wrong.

[Silence]

I just want to deal with your translator

Stfu idiot. Keep licking Boots' a$$.

[The Ninth Layer]

There's always going to be hot young guys. Sometimes you can just tell by looking at a fighter that they will have a special career. I felt that way abut Terence Crawford when I first saw him and I think that's panned out. But imo the panning out part is pretty huge.

With that said, imo it's definitely a great time to buy Boots Ennis stock. The only thing I'm worried about with him is that it's been too easy, and what happens when it stops being too easy. But that's a great problem for a young fighter to have.

[The Ninth Layer]

the trouble with 'proven accomplishment in the ring' is that it makes total sense on a theoretical level but not on a practical level, not these days.
Fighters these days are so inactive that we are lucky to get 2 fights a year and actually 4 fights in 3 years is more like it and likely one of those is a stay busy - case in point Bud vs Avanesyan.

BTW I do want to say that a fighter's proven accomplishments are very meaningful on a practical as well as theoretical level.

If you study the past fights of a boxer before he goes into a big match woith his next opponent in mind, you will be able to see strengths and weaknesses in their game even from fights years ago, that you will then see pay off in their next match. Old fight footage is extremely valuable in evaluating fighters, because you get to see how the same guy handles himself in a variety of different looks and situations. If you do any betting on fights I highly recommend doing this, even revisiting one or two previous fights against a similar styled opponent from years ago will make you hugely better at picking good bets.

[SteveM]

My feeling is that fighters represent ongoing projects. Boxing isn't the NBA where you have 82 data points a year to judge teams and set up power rankings. I guess I could see a vision of p4p that is essentially a "power rankings" or "trending/hot fighters" list. But imo, a fighter is as good as every winning performance they've had in their past until proven otherwise.

For example my own personal list would have Canelo at the top with a pretty clear lead because the "project" of Canelo as a fighter has been extremely successful across several years and against a variety of top fighters with diverse styles. He's not just someone I -think- would beat a variety of current competitors across weight divisions, he's already proven he can. I still have him at the top spot despite the Bivol loss because while it was a bad style matchup Canelo failed to adjust to, it was also a fight against arguably the best guy at a division seven pounds up from where he's competed over the last couple years... not to mention about four divisions up from where his career began!! And while he failed to knock out Golvokin, I don't see that as a knock on Canelo. Golovkin himself had a strong claim to the top pound for pound spot just a few years ago, he's one of the best to ever fight and even at 40 years old is still very good. And that was the first fight I personally feel Golovkin lost cleanly (I think he beat Canelo in their first two).

Is Canelo "trending down" now that he lost to Bivol and didn't dispatch Golovkin? Maybe... but he's got a loooong way down for me to not have him ranked on my pound for pound list. His career has been exceptional and I expect that to continue for some time. At least until someone proves me wrong.

Yes, you have a different notion of P$P than I do. I do pay attention to resume but only for the last 18 months or so - and that's because so much can, and often does change in 18 months. Now even that has provisos - when Mikey Garcia didn't fightfor quite a while he was in his prime when he came back so it didn't make much difference. But 18 months for a 37 year old is a long time as they are falling off rapidly - smae dealfor a 19 year old and 21 year old but in other direction.

Yes, I totally get that losing to Bivol and beating Golovkin doesn't mean much if you only look at the career resumes of Bivol and especially Golovkin. But I'm looking at it in a more nuanced way. It's a question of how he lost to Bivol. He was totally outclassed and befuddled. It was a question of how he beat a by now very faded Golovkin who bore no resemblance to the Golovkin of 2017/18. I think these nuances matter and that's why the title of my thread has October 2022 in it - how is Canelo in October 2022, not how he might be justifiably perceived to be based on his resume since he beat Matthew Hatton - that is more a criteria for whether he or any other fighter gets in the HOF.

Canelo is trending down - steeply. Ennis is trending up steeply. Perceptions.

His career has been exceptional - and the odds are that a trend will continue - maybe 2 off fights is not a big enough sample to call it a trend - but its at least the beginning of a potential trend and given his wear and tear and no. of fights I'm predicting we've seen the best of Canelo.