Current Heavyweights - The Era With No Name

[duffgun]

same ole article that has written 1000 time over the last 5 years. yet they aren't paying attentions to the facts. and the fact is things have changed, wlad has gotten better and better, he is such a dominate champion now, thompson has no chance, haye has no chance, peter has no chance.



really wladimir will go down as one of the best in history

wlad has got more boring boring boring, a few years back he was actually exciting to watch but fights like brock, sultan, brewster II and Byrd II were all boring.

[WESS]

wlad has got more boring boring boring, a few years back he was actually exciting to watch but fights like brock, sultan, brewster II and Byrd II were all boring.

Thats why I said since a prime Tyson and Holyfield left the sport it hasnt been the same...

[Yogi]

he has unified his 3 belts. he's the champion of 3 orgs. he's the best heavy right now.

that's the best i can give you , bud. ha ha ha

I've got a question for you, LHT, and I hope you take no offense to this...But under the very definition of the word champion being described as "one that is acknowledged to be better than all the others", isn't your comment and opinion about Wladimir being the best heavyweight right now in actuality you stating that he is the champion in your mind?

Think about the meaning of the word 'champion' for a minute and ask yourself what the difference is between "a champion" and "the champion" (two grouping of words you used earlier), because to me there is no difference what so ever between the two statements. A champion is singular in it's meaning, and the whole idea of having one is to determine a sole possessor of only one person worthy of having that title attached to their name. The one guy who stands above all others as the holder of the position that all others strive to achieve in the respective grouping (in this instance, the heavyweight division of pro boxing). In other words, the very best. To say that there's two (or more) champions in any given grouping is a complete contradiction in the very meaning of the word, which means that there is in fact no champion(s). No single person that stands above all others in the grouping. No single person could be classified as the one who is the very best.

You know, as a boxing fan coming from a time from just before the unfortunate and corrupt U.S. championship tournaments from back in 1977 (I was young, yes, but still), which then gave the alphabet boys (with help from television) some power in the boxing world due to The Ring's downfall as a result of their part in that tournament, it does bug me quite a bit to see a younger generation of boxing fans (and writers) become, to steal a word from Shawshank, "institutionalized" into thinking that these messed up ABC groups have any say into who the real champions are for each weight class because the truth is they don't. In fact, like I stated earlier, their very existence and how their importance is percieved by some fans conflicts with the very definition of the meaning of the word "champion", and do no more than try to damage the long standing tradition of the word as far as the great sport of boxing goes. You don't need one guy holding two of those organizations belts to know who "the best" is. You don't need one guy holding three or even all four of them trinkets to know who "the best" is, although in that situation it's very likely that that fighter has proven himself.

All you really need to do is think independantly from those groups that do boxing no good what so ever, go outside the box and ask yourself, "who is the very best right now?". If you are asking that in reference to the heavyweight division right now and don't have any reluctance or confusion in deciding who "the best" is your mind then you don't have a champion. If you have found an answer, like it seems you have, well...there you go. You have found yourself a World Heavyweight Champion, and after Lewis retired as "champion", you have linearacy in the division restored.

[edgarg]

Charles was 6'0" and grew into an average size heavyweight for his era. Maricano was shorter but much larger framed, still it doesn't matter since Charles more than proved himself a capable heavy. He was one of the busiest Champions in history while dominating Louis and peak Walcott not long after their famous 48 meeting; he also beat much bigger guys than Rocky like Layne and the 6'2" 200+ lb Wallace. His few loses were close and Walcott was the only guy that stopped him before Rocky, and he was winning almost every round before that. Charles is very underrated at heavy, though he of course fell apart after the brutal second Rocky fight.

When Charles fought Marciano he was already in the early stages of the disease which killed him a few years later. What difference does it make that he was 5 lbs heavier than Rocky, he was only a built up light-heavy, and that extra weight was just that, extra weight. And, he'd been in many brutal battles and was so far over the gill that he was almost "out=of-sight. Just like poor demented Louis, and superannuated Walcott, who nevertheless was beating Marciano up until he got caught with a one of a kind punch, in that 13th or 14th round.

I suggest that you look up not only Marciano's opponents, but THEIR opponents, and you'll get a better idea as to his level. His fights against Louis, Walcott, Charles etc was good ONLY because they had regressed so damn much, that they came back down to his level, which made good fights. Forget how well connected his manager Weill and promoter Dundee were, and just go on the merits. (Yet, even forgetting about the "conections" it's interesting that he had already had a couple of money fights BEFORE he became an amateur)..............

On another point, does anyone know if they ever found any of that money that Rocky buried around his estate??

[Chase8400]

When Charles fought Marciano he was already in the early stages of the disease which killed him a few years later. What difference does it make that he was 5 lbs heavier than Rocky, he was only a built up light-heavy, and that extra weight was just that, extra weight. And, he'd been in many brutal battles and was so far over the gill that he was almost "out=of-sight. Just like poor demented Louis, and superannuated Walcott, who nevertheless was beating Marciano up until he got caught with a one of a kind punch, in that 13th or 14th round.

I suggest that you look up not only Marciano's opponents, but THEIR opponents, and you'll get a better idea as to his level. His fights against Louis, Walcott, Charles etc was good ONLY because they had regressed so damn much, that they came back down to his level, which made good fights. Forget how well connected his manager Weill and promoter Dundee were, and just go on the merits. (Yet, even forgetting about the "conections" it's interesting that he had already had a couple of money fights BEFORE he became an amateur)..............

On another point, does anyone know if they ever found any of that money that Rocky buried around his estate??

Now, you come on here and try and knock Marciano's credintials also? At least stick to present fighters for Christ's sake.

[edgarg]

There is no proof that Marciano had any connections to the mafia. Just because he was Italian that doesn't mean he was mobbed up.

Medical condition? I can name a bunch of recent fighters who had "medical conditions" when they lost.

I'm not going to argue with ardent Klitschko fans because you really can't. I just wanted to present the otherside of the coin.

I just saw your letter now, and wish to reply about one thing, and that is the "Marciano " thing. FACE IT...the whole boxing industry was controlled by the mob at that time and for many years before. This is a HISTORICAL fact. NO, it's true that no one brought out proof that Marciano was "connected", but it was generally thought that his career had been "influenced' by "connections". People stepped very delicately around it. For example, he had a couple of paid fights BEFORE he was "reinstated" at an amateur, in the days when they were indeed VERY STRICT about the pro-amateur relationship, and a reversal was unheard of.

He was known to have been in the regular company of certain "influential" crime figures, people who later were indicted and put in jail for fight fixing and other boxing related items. His manager Al Weill was very intimate with the same guys and his promoter Chris Dundee (who was his trainer's brother) was a proven "connected" guy.

And, just check his opponents and the opponents of his opponents. They were ALL set-ups right to the core.

To finish, it was just before the time when Rocky retired that they were beginning the Senate investigations (run by Sen. Estes Kefauver) into Jim Norris, Frankie Carbo,( who'd been charged about 6-7 times with murder) their International Boxing Club which ran everything in boxing(I think) and the whole boxing schtick, which brought it all into the open, and some prominent figures went to jail. Truman Gibson was involved, and a load of top managers and trainers. You should look it up, I'm just going from memory, but I'm pretty sure of these facts.

Then suddenly Marciano retired. No one knew why. Just the week before the announcement, he gave an interview with Nat Loubet, later Ring Publisher, but at that time one of the pre-eminent Ring boxing reporters in which he said that he would be fighting for a few years, yet, that he was still learning, that he felt is great shape etc.

He later floated the story that his wife Barbara wanted him to.......

I was around at that time, very involved in boxing and I actually have the Ring ****zine in which that interview was published. By co-incidence there was also a report that Floyd Patterson (who's manager Cus D'Amato was a sworn enemy of the mob) had nearly half killed a top heavyweight in a fight, and, by coincidence (again) it was only a matter of 9 months later that Patterson outclassed Archie Moore and won the title.......................

None of these things, of course, has anything to do with the other.............

[edgarg]

Orltroy

ORLTROY I generally agree with your letters, and you make very good points, and always readable. but I must disagree when you say that "lineal" and "linear" mean the same thing. They are not.

"Linear" is a physical reference to a straight line (of measurement or sight) whilst "lineal" is specifically connected with a line of descent, such as an inheritable family blood line, or, in the case of boxing, a direct, proven, line of descent of a Championship title.

[edgarg]

Maricano was one of the more well known champions in history and is often ranked as an all time great. Get over it.

You can just as easily rip Holmes' pre comeback record. How old and over the hill were Shavers, Norton, and Ali? Were Witherspoon, Cooney, Carl Williams, Cobb, and Weaver really great contenders?

I personally rank Holmes resume over Marciano's but you can criticize both. Holmes was not a beloved heavyweight in his heyday as many thought he was dominating a weak division...well that sounds familiar doesn't it?

The mafia protected stuff is just ****tarded, Marciano wasn't exactly considered a great prospect coming up and noone took him seriously as he was undersized, clumsy, and ****** up with career threatening injuires before he even turned pro. He wasn't even the thought of as the white hope, Rex Layne was until Marciano laid him out.

REX LAYNE was beaten every time he stepped up in class.

[edgarg]

Now, you come on here and try and knock Marciano's credintials also? At least stick to present fighters for Christ's sake.

Chase, you should know me by now. I can talk specifically or I can range far afield. But there's always a traceable connection.

When I talk about either of the Klitschko's I'm accused, in vulgar, foulmouthed terms, of being a mindless "fan", although I've long ago left the "fan" stage far behind (by about 50 years). I discuss specific points brought up, and attempt to straighten out the warped opinions and statements which often proliferate on these pages. So, if you look, you'll see that I DID write a letter on the dominance and deserved position of Wladimir Klitschko on this thread. Only then did I take up with other points mentioned.

To me it's just a cerebral exercise and a little syntactic(al) practice.

[edgarg]

To add to my letter to JOURNALSQUARE

I neglected to also mention that at the "mob-controlled" time I was talking about, Al Weill, Marciano's MANAGER, "just happened to be" the MATCHMAKER for the Madison Sq Gardens, which at that time was controlled by you know who........ The matchmaker was positively the most important figure in making a boxing matchup.