Sugar Ray Robinson v Charles Burley

[drablj]

let's analyze the timeline.
burley was a nobody before 1938.

while armstrong was a welterweight champion
burley won vs. zivic X2 and cocoa kid, clearly better than bobby pacho, howard scott, richie fontaine, joe ghnouly, phil furr...

while zivic was a welterweight champion
burley won all his matches, clearly better than red cochrane in 1941. cochrane made his first defense 4,5 years later (this hurt a bunch of fighters). burley was a middleweight then.

tony zale was the middleweight champion during the war. he "unified" in 1941. and his next defense was graziano in 1946. (this hurt ezzard charles more than burley) zale and graziano went on to have a trilogy (who can blame them? brutal and popular fights). his next defense and final fight was cerdan. so zale could have given burley a title shot instead of graziano in 1946. or instead of cerdan in 1948.

cerdan defended against lamotta, lost and died.
lamotta's defenses were mitri and dauthuille in 1950.

burley retired after that. based on this, the champion who "ducked" burley the most was armstrong, followed by zivic (they shared a manager while zivic was a champion guaranteeing they wouldn't fight each other), zale and lamotta. if you want to blame some fighter for burley not having a more successful career, armstrong and lamotta are better choices than robinson.

[Willie Pep 229]

let's analyze the timeline.
burley was a nobody before 1938.

while armstrong was a welterweight champion
burley won vs. zivic X2 and cocoa kid, clearly better than bobby pacho, howard scott, richie fontaine, joe ghnouly, phil furr...

while zivic was a welterweight champion
burley won all his matches, clearly better than red cochrane in 1941. cochrane made his first defense 4,5 years later (this hurt a bunch of fighters). burley was a middleweight then.

ony zale was the middleweight champion during the war. he "unified" in 1941. and his next defense was graziano in 1946. (this hurt ezzard charles more than burley) zale and graziano went on to have a trilogy (who can blame them? brutal and popular fights). his next defense and final fight was cerdan. so zale could have given burley a title shot instead of graziano in 1946. or instead of cerdan in 1948.

cerdan defended against lamotta, lost and died.
lamotta's defenses were mitri and dauthuille in 1950.

burley retired after that. based on this, the champion who "ducked" burley the most was armstrong, followed by zivic (they shared a manager while zivic was a champion guaranteeing they wouldn't fight each other), zale and lamotta. if you want to blame some fighter for burley not having a more successful career, armstrong and lamotta are better choices than robinson.

If Tony Zale 'ducked' anyone it was Holman Williams. Williams schooled Burley in Buffalo in the summer of '45 pretty much ending their ranking dispute with Burley in second place.

But one can't blame Zale for taking the Graziano fight over Williams. Between November of '44 and June of '46 Graziano had packed MSG nine times (as a non title holder.)

Garziano-Zale ended up outdoors in a ball park, a crowd Zale could never hope to draw with Holman Williams or Charles Burley. The contenders got screwed because as you point out, the trilogy was just too good and ate up three years.

By the time Zale is ready for Cerdan, Burley had slipped form the rankings, and Williams had bump up to LHW (coming out on the losing end of a trilogy with the Old Mongoose, 1-2.)

I agree if there was a 'duck' it was Armstrong in '41, but even at that time there was a number #1 ranked SRR who deserved the shot, not Burley.

I believe Zivic would have given Burley a shot. He had several reasons to do so, one being that he owned a piece of Burley's contract and would have been double dipping into the prize money.

But after defeating Armstrong and then re-matching him, Zivic had a right to a 'showcase' fight and that was the Cochrane fight. No one considered the Cochrane fight a legitimate defense, he was only an un-ranked journeyman, but it was an Ellis Island fight with a Polish kid from Newark and an Irish kid from Elizabeth. They packed a small a small ballpark in New Jersey and made good money.

Zivic just forgot to show-up that night and threw away his title to a journeyman.

My guess is, had Zivic thought to show up that night his next fight might very well have been Burley, but we will never know.

[drablj]

If Tony Zale 'ducked' anyone it was ...

thank you for additional information.

[Rusty Tromboni]

let's analyze the timeline.
burley was a nobody before 1938.....

Beautiful stuff! Thanks for sharing. It really puts to rest the internet folklore.

If Tony Zale 'ducked' anyone it was Holman Williams. Williams schooled Burley in Buffalo in the summer of '45 pretty much ending their ranking dispute with Burley in...

Wonderful stuff as always! Thanks so much for sharing.

I will say though, Zivic is a Croat from my hometown, Pittsburgh, not Polish from Newark. ;-)
Everything else though was wonderful.

[Willie Pep 229]

Beautiful stuff! Thanks for sharing. It really puts to rest the internet folklore.




Wonderful stuff as always! Thanks so much for sharing.

I will say though, Zivic is a Croat from my hometown, Pittsburgh, not Polish from Newark. ;-)
Everything else though was wonderful.

Let me try to pass off the 'Polish' as typical cultural bias, mine. LOL

You know, at that time anyone from Eastern Europe who isn't Russian must be Polish. -- Whoever heard of Croatia in 1941? -- But I'm embarrassed!

Definitely out of Pittsburgh. But unlike Burley who chose to go south and then west, Zivic campaigned often in the New York metropolitan area, and by then he was a New Jersey favorite. He proved a good draw for Armstrong at the Garden.

I wonder if Zivic's manager (with whom he own part of Burley's contract) was also from Pittsburgh?

Again, I apologize for the "Polish.'

[Rusty Tromboni]

Let me try to pass off the 'Polish' as typical cultural bias, mine. LOL

You know, at that time anyone from Eastern Europe who isn't Russian must be Polish. -- Whoever heard of Croatia in 1941? -- But I'm embarrassed!

Definitely out of Pittsburgh. But unlike Burley who chose to go south and then west, Zivic campaigned often in the New York metropolitan area, and by then he was a New Jersey favorite. He proved a good draw for Armstrong at the Garden.

I wonder if Zivic's manager (with whom he own part of Burley's contract) was also from Pittsburgh?

Again, I apologize for the "Polish.'

No big deal. I'm part Slovak, and if anyone asks what that means I simply refer them to Poland.

Zivic fought too much. He could really rise to the occasion. But whenever people argue old timers were better for being more active, I ask them to explain Zivic. Many don't even know who he was.

[them_apples]

robinson would have won, depends what year this was in, but in my opinion robinson would win it.

These guys were all so good and experienced back then I give Burley a chance, but it certainly depends on the time. They would likely do a series as well of 3+ bouts, winning and losing some.

If we somehow manage to make this a prime for prime matchup I go with Robinson, however if this is the 200+ fights deep in tired of fighting and only try when it matters Robinson, then Burley probably grabs a win.

Hard to decide though all we have is articles, a little footage and trainers who mention how great Burley was.

[The Old LefHook]

LMAO!


Dammit, you put me in stitches. My ribs are broken. I can't stop laughing.

You really just compared Burley to Gavilan? I can't think of two fighters more different.

Ray did NOT attempt to avenge his sole amateur loss to Graham, who WAS like Burley. And Graham certainly did have a following.


Look you're not wrong, Burley wasn't thrilling and his career was disastrously mismanaged (while it's true Armstrong wanted nothing to do with Burley, he really wanted nothing do with ANYONE with a pulse; and Zivic's mgmt did seem to neatly shelve Burley so Fritizy could get his shot). That doesn't change the fact that Ray definitely pursued the path of least resistance. Gavilan, for example, was easy for Ray.

I would pick Ray to beat Graham and Burley. Burley struggled with Williams' handspeed, and he lacked Ray's size and power. Burley also seems prone to being bullied, which Ray did quite well.

I doubt Burley is an easy fight. Maxim, Turpin and the Filipino weren't. But it's not a fight I'd expect Ray to lose.

Really, Burley is another one of these internet-age folk heroes who's legacy doesn't hold up well under scrutiny.

Robinson lost no amateur fight, you thoroughbred halfwit.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Robinson lost no amateur fight, you thoroughbred halfwit.

Halfwit?

Last time I bent you over you started screaming that I was TOO wide.

You're a fickle fruit, indeed, Mr. Humphreys.

[ShoulderRoll]

- -An Olympic gold medal didn't mean much professional then. See Pete Rademacher.

Ali was the first gold medalist to amount to anything.

Is there even a Burley bio to shed light then?

U dumb?

Floyd Patterson was an Olympic gold medalist. He amounted to quite a bit.