James J Jeffries Best Wins

[ShoulderRoll]

This is not correct. The first Jeffries vs Corbett fight was about even in rounds until the KO based on how we score fights today.

The issue here is Corbett was a talker, Jeffries wasn't and unless you saw the fight, you took Corbett quote that he was up 22-0 as fact. Hardly. By the time of the 2nd fight, Jeffries was full developed in Skills ,and Corbett was too old and rusty. That one was not close. Here's a quality read on the first fight between Jeffries and Corbett.




The 2nd Fitz fight was also about even on rounds until the KO happened. Fitz had a very good middle of that fight, but Jeffries took over in the 7th and put him out in 8. Some say Fitz tampered with his gloves, and when Jeffries asked to see them Fitz threw them into the crowd.

When I first started out with research, I took the internet stories at face value, then I read the right reports. You get a different story.

I can post a few on line newspapers links that cover boxing, and anyone can read them.

Post the fight weights while you're at it.

That was Jeffries' true advantage over Fitz and Corbett.

The fact is he was crude and ended up with only 22 fights total. Not near enough to develop into a great boxer. He didn't need to since he was so much bigger and stronger than most of his contemporaries, but it has to be noted.

[Dr. Z]

Post the fight weights while you're at it.

That was Jeffries' true advantage over Fitz and Corbett.

The fact is he was crude and ended up with only 22 fights total. Not near enough to develop into a great boxer. He didn't need to since he was so much bigger and stronger than most of his contemporaries, but it has to be noted.

The trouble is the fighters didn't always weigh in. They gave their weights. When Fitz said 167, Jeffries joked put me down for 144.

Yes, he was bigger. Size and reach are always an advantage, and at 6'1 1/2 76 1/2 reach, 220 pounds, that was a giant in Jeffries time. As his career progressed he picked up skills, same as everyone else.

But he also fought the best of his time. Now here's where people get angry with me, no offense meant. Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, and Joe Louis, three fine heavyweights were Ko'd by men under 200 pounds and the sub 200 men Jeffries fought were of a better class than than those who stopped Johnson, Dempsey and Louis.

From the 2nd Corbett fight:

"Referee Ed Graney commented, “I was not prepared to see Jeffries outbox Corbett…I doubt the equal of his present self will ever exist.” This proves that Jeff had developed into a good all around fighter, that he was not just a big lumbering oaf with a punch. He was a skilled athletic heavyweight with boxing prowess who could slip inside and **** away at the body and take his man apart over the course of a fight. Jeffries knocked out Corbett in the 10th round. It was a systematic destruction of a very fast and skillful boxer. The Jeffries of this fight would be a threat to any heavyweight who ever lived. "


Regarding the 22 fights, that's what Box Rec would report, and it's wrong. For example on the Jeffries vs. Fitzsimmons 1 fight, the magazine program lists Jeffries with 20 fights at the time. Box Rec says only 11.

As champion Jeffries went to Europe and Ko'd 10 men. Who were they? We don't know who they all were, but it it reported as such. His older ring record also has KO wins over Ed Martin, and Frank Childs for example. The Martin win, if verified would be a decent one. Reports say KO1.

I believe he had well over 30 fights. If you want to claim 22, then boy was he ever moved fast. IMO a resume is best judged best on who you beat and when. Fighting
30 journeyman fattens a resume, it doesn't make it much better.

[ShoulderRoll]

A 30-40 lbs weight advantage is significant. And you yourself acknowledge that Corbett was old by the time of their second fight.

How old was Fitzsimmons at the time of their second fight?

I can't just gloss over those details.

It seems that what stood out most about Jeffries was his size, strength, and unusual stamina for such a big man. Good athletic qualities to be sure.

But boxing IQ and acumen? Nothing to write home about.

[Marchegiano]

A 30-40 lbs weight advantage is significant. And you yourself acknowledge that Corbett was old by the time of their second fight.

How old was Fitzsimmons at the time of their second fight?

I can't just gloss over those details.

It seems that what stood out most about Jeffries was his size, strength, and unusual stamina for such a big man. Good athletic qualities to be sure.

But boxing IQ and acumen? Nothing to write home about.

edited in - Fitzs is older than Corbett by like five years I think -

How about their performances post Jeffries?

I'm not arguing against both an age and size advantage, but, a man who beats up Kid McCoy takes a little more than being bigger and younger to beat. A man who can still KO Sharkey and Ruhlin takes a little more than size to beat.

After Jeffries Corbett KO's The Real McCoy

After Jeffries Fitzs KO's Ruhlin and Sharkey.


Also, in Fitzs' case, I think you should consider the plexus punch and how often Fitzs was using it. He KO'd Maher with it, KO'd Corbett with it, and crushed Sharkey's nuts by misplacing it, most people saw that as a KO for Bob too.

So going into the Jeffries fight ol Jeff knew Bobby was gonna go low and he did something about it. Corbett, Sharkey, Maher, all unable, Ruhlin, unable, but, it was just Jeffries size? A size advantage that Fitzs himself was not worried about at all?

I don't think so. I reckon Jeffries had to be pretty good to go with his youth and size otherwise he'd've ended up like every other big man in that era no one gives a **** about.


Finally, you don't draw Ruhlin, knock him down, with just a ten pound advantage in your in your 6th nor do you KO Griffin in your third fight just because you're big and young. Dude had to have some level of understanding what's going on.

[ShoulderRoll]

edited in - Fitzs is older than Corbett by like five years I think -

How about their performances post Jeffries?

I'm not arguing against both an age and size advantage, but, a man who beats up Kid McCoy takes a little more than being bigger and younger to beat. A man who can still KO Sharkey and Ruhlin takes a little more than size to beat.

After Jeffries Corbett KO's The Real McCoy

After Jeffries Fitzs KO's Ruhlin and Sharkey.


Also, in Fitzs' case, I think you should consider the plexus punch and how often Fitzs was using it. He KO'd Maher with it, KO'd Corbett with it, and crushed Sharkey's nuts by misplacing it, most people saw that as a KO for Bob too.

So going into the Jeffries fight ol Jeff knew Bobby was gonna go low and he did something about it. Corbett, Sharkey, Maher, all unable, Ruhlin, unable, but, it was just Jeffries size? A size advantage that Fitzs himself was not worried about at all?

I don't think so. I reckon Jeffries had to be pretty good to go with his youth and size otherwise he'd've ended up like every other big man in that era no one gives a **** about.


Finally, you don't draw Ruhlin, knock him down, with just a ten pound advantage in your in your 6th nor do you KO Griffin in your third fight just because you're big and young. Dude had to have some level of understanding what's going on.

It says a lot about Fitzsimmons' quality that he was able to spot Jeffries a huge weight advantage as well as an age advantage and STILL dish out a beating on him before succumbing.

Fitzs was the class of that early heavyweight era in my opinion. Combined bareknuckle and gloved techniques/strategies with his blacksmith strength. A complete fighter.

[Dr. Z]

A 30-40 lbs weight advantage is significant. And you yourself acknowledge that Corbett was old by the time of their second fight.

How old was Fitzsimmons at the time of their second fight?

I can't just gloss over those details.

It seems that what stood out most about Jeffries was his size, strength, and unusual stamina for such a big man. Good athletic qualities to be sure.

But boxing IQ and acumen? Nothing to write home about.

Corbett was 33 for the first fight and very fit. His own people said it was his finest ring performance. Yes, he was older for the 2nd fight, not my point. My points are Jeffries was about even in rounds with Corbett in the first fight, and had improved a good margin in the 2nd fight. After the 1st fight with Corbett, Jeffries never needed more than 10 rounds.

The first fight, as I showed vs Fitz was easy for Jeffries. The second fight wasn't easy, but the rounds were even and Fitz might have cheated to get an edge.

Actually Jeffries was a smart fighter. He never punched himself out, and was patient. An interesting point to note is that Jeffries fought 6 men 200 pounds or more and they didn't last as long as the smaller and quicker types such a Corbett.

I suggest you read In the Ring With James Jeffries by author / historian Adam Pollack. You'll learn a lot and it's a fine book too.

[Marchegiano]

It says a lot about Fitzsimmons' quality that he was able to spot Jeffries a huge weight advantage as well as an age advantage and STILL dish out a beating on him before succumbing.

Fitzs was the class of that early heavyweight era in my opinion. Combined bareknuckle and gloved techniques/strategies with his blacksmith strength. A complete fighter.

I drink Sherry because I was told Fitzs did otherwise I'd call it a lady drink.

Fitzs was ****ing excellent. Could be ranked number one and I wouldn't argue.

[ShoulderRoll]

The first fight, as I showed vs Fitz was easy for Jeffries. The second fight wasn't easy, but the rounds were even and Fitz might have cheated to get an edge.

How did Fitzsimmons cheat?

[Dr. Z]

How did Fitzsimmons cheat?

You haven't heard the story? I said might have cheated.

He wrapped his hands with electoral tape, which wasn't in the contract and that made his fist as hard a rock. That is proven.

After the fight ended Jeffries went over to shake Fitz's hand and asked to see his gloves as the didn't cut him up the last time. Fitz threw the gloves into the crowd like a guilty man would.

So Jeffries not only had to take Fitz's power, which in of itself was monstrous, he also had to deal with a rock hard wrapping concealed by 5 ounce gloves which were possible tampered.

In time the two went on tour in 1903 facing all comers and the names that history has forgotten, so Jeffries didn't hold a grudge.

[ShoulderRoll]

You haven't heard the story? I said might have cheated.

He wrapped his hands with electoral tape, which wasn't in the contract and that made his fist as hard a rock. That is proven.

After the fight ended Jeffries went over to shake Fitz's hand and asked to see his gloves as the didn't cut him up the last time. Fitz threw the gloves into the crowd like a guilty man would.

So Jeffries not only had to take Fitz's power, which in of itself was monstrous, he also had to deal with a rock hard wrapping concealed by 5 ounce gloves which were possible tampered.

In time the two went on tour in 1903 facing all comers and the names that history has forgotten, so Jeffries didn't hold a grudge.

Aw, the infamous electrical tape.

The same kind that Jimmy DeForest claimed he wrapped Dempsey's hands with prior to the Jess Willard beatdown.

I don't know what to make of that. I guess I would think less of both Dempsey and Fitz if it was true.

travestyny might find it interesting to hear that there was another alleged instance of the use of that tape, though.