Jimmy Deforest and Jack Dempsey Letters - 1925

[travestyny]

Found a couple of letters between the two from 1925 that some of you might like. Enjoy!

[travestyny]

OK three things T

1. I want to read the letters (not claiming they don't exist; this is not a challenge, they just sounds interesting).

2. I don't see why you keep referring to later interviews (NYT 1964) and later written biographies (Fleischer) as proof that anything was actually said in 1920. That's not proof that the statements are primary to 1920. RE FLEISCHER: You and I always disagree on this, but I view Fleischer as a sycophant and a liar and quotes from him are meaningless/useless in trying to discern the truth on any topic. Just a self aggrandizing old man who should have kept his mouth shut in Lewiston.

3. The third one is complicated. The way this seems to be playing out -- bicycle tape not plaster; Willard's people watching Dempsey's hands being wrapped, photos of what Dempsey hands looked like, Dempsey sitting in the ring in front of everyone for a long period of time with his hands wrapped and no one reacting; the fighters gloves being put on their hands in the ring in front of everyone . . . and on and on -- with all this behavior, bicycle tape or no bicycle tape, why are we suppose to believe that there was somehow cheating going on when it seems everyone involved must have seen his hands/wraps and accepted them? Doesn't the term "loaded gloves" imply breaking the rules? The way you (and De Forest) tell the story they don't seem to have broken any rules. So "bicycle tape or no bicycle tape" why do you call it "loaded gloves"?

I still say the litmus test is to just look at Dempsey's hands in the photo I posted, they do not look like loaded wraps just well wrapped!

Hey I am out for the day so I won't be able to reply until nite. Really would love to read the letter though. Take care and have a great day..

For Num. 2, I don't have the original article. But why would there be two different sources saying the same exact thing? Take a look at the NYT article:

THIS may seem a trifle late to be discussing the claim of the rascally Jack Doc Kearns that he had loaded the gloves of Jack Dempsey with plaster of pariis immediately before the heavyweight championship fight with Jess Willard. But a yellowed clipping has just reached this desk that opens a fascinating new avenue for exploration.

The clipping, exhumed by S.J. Riccardi, contains a column that Joe Vila, one of the ” more noted boxing authorities of his day, wrote for The New York Evening Sun June 30, 1920. What gives It extra credence is that it appeared slightly less than a year after Dempsey,. had massacred the Pottawatomie Giant.

Now that the situation is fully understood, it is pertinent to bring in the Joe Vila column, “Setting the Pace.” If he seemed to dismiss the meatiest part of his story with a casual reference in the final paragraph, it was only because it didn't appear particularly significant in that era of skulduggery and sharp dealing.

Instead, Vila concentrated on the future rather than the past in an interview with Jimmy DeForest, Dempsey's trainer and chief second in the fight with Willard. They discussed the likelihood of a bout between the Manassa Mauler and Georges Carpentier of France.

DeForest saw not the slightest chance of the Frenchman beating a tiger like Dempsey and predicted a knockout within three rounds. He was not too wrong. Jack took it easy before flattening Carpentier in the fourth. Then the trainer wheeled abruptly into a discussion of the slaughter at Toledo a year before. Here's the way Vila handled it in his final two paragraphs:

“Dempsey followed my instructions to the letter,” said DeForest. “I had told him that after landing six lefts to cut the right loose for Willard's heart. The first time Jack drove the right home it was all over. Willard's heart was broken and he couldn't withstand a continuation of such terrific body punches. Dempsey's left did great execution but his right really settled the issue,

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

The mention of “aluminum pads” would seem to indicate that there must have been some su****ion even then of destructive foreign substances inside Dempsey's gloves. The discredited Kearns tells a discredited story with his plaster of paris. But the DeForest tale of “a certain kind of adhesive tape” sounds both plausible and logical. How else could a single punch splinter a cheekbone into 13 pieces?

So this was from Joe Vila's daily column called, "Setting the Pace." It wasn't even focusing on the wraps, as mentioned. The focus was on Dempsey's future. I would implore you to look up Joe Vila, and also look up the author of the article, Arthur Daley. These are well respected journalists.

Joe Vila-- "Vila has been regarded as one of the most influential sportswriters during the first third of the 20th century, while setting fundamental changes in sports coverage during the decades to come."

Arthur Daley— Pulitzer Prize winner for reporting and commentary--outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association "Sportswriter of the Year."

When you look at what was said in the article and what Nat Fleischer said he heard directly from Jimmy Deforests mouth at a press conference with other reporters... it's identical.

So is there some kind of conspiracy going on by these trusted reporters? It's highly unlikely.


For Num. 3, as Deforest said, it wasn't strictly speaking illegal. But it's not like it wasn't considered a dirty trick that could be used. Remember, Deforest said he did the same with Kid McCoy's wraps. Here is an article about McCoy's wraps, and they refer to it as a "trick of the trade."

San Francisco Call, Volume 107, Number 117, 27 March 1910 -- TRICKS OF THE TRADE OF PRIZE FIGHTERS

Same process described by DeForest, who was McCoy's trainer apparently.

There are plenty of writers who agree that this is likely what happened.

Paul Beston—Author of The Boxing Kings: When American Heavyweights Ruled the Ring.

[All the evidence points to a more mundane explanation: Dempsey wore handwraps wound with a tightening adhesive, likened to bicycle tape—more than sufficient to make his hands feel like rocks.[/b] The tape was not illegal at the time, and the testimony of multiple parties suggests that Willard’s people made no objection to it.

Paul Beston Again:

The punishment that Dempsey inflicted in Toledo—likely exaggerated as the years passed—can probably be explained by DeForest’s use of a hardening tape to wrap his hands. One observer compared it with bicycle tape, which would make Dempsey’s hands very hard indeed.

Were Dempsey’s gloves loaded in Toledo? Yes—but only in comparison with the softer wrappings that modern fighters wear. The foul-play accusations that surround the Willard fight make wonderful lore but poor history. These were different times.

Carlos Acevedo—Boxing Writers Association of America/Intenational Boxing Research Organization.

For years, those who pooh-poohed the Railroad Spike Theory and the Plaster of Paris Plot have ignored two simple details.

The first is the fact that Dempsey did wear “loaded gloves.” As Al Spink pointed out in The Atlanta Constitution only months after Dempsey annihilated Willard:….So bandaging knuckles has become an art among the boxers, and the trickiest glove men are adepts in putting on the wraps so as to make the glove as hard as the old Roman cestus, with which the ancient gladiators often killed each other.” Jimmy Deforest explained how Dempsey had achieved such carnage in so short a time. Is it possible that Willard actually inspected Dempsey’s hands before the tape hardened?

Randy Warren Roberts — “Nearly 40 years later, Roberts’s biography remains the best book written about Jack Dempsey, and it’s not even close.”

Jimmy Deforest, who taped Dempsey's hands, admitted that he used a hard adhesive tape, but that was perfectly legal. Regardless of how hard the tape was during the fight, Dempsey was champion.

I seriously doubt all of these writers engaged in a plot to besmirch Dempsey. It was a "trick" that Deforest used to give Dempsey an edge. A trick that could be used right in front of everyone's eyes, as it's mentioned by Deforest and some of the writers above that Willard inspected the wraps. Seems like the trick worked quite well.


The thing I don't like about this being done is Willard protested A LOT about guys wrapping their hands in such a fashion that their hands were like iron before the fight. He made a huge fuss over it, and yet they did it anyway.

[travestyny]

I wonder what DeForest knew about the Wills incident. It's funny that he so casually mentions that the Tunney fight will "eliminate Wills from the picture."

Why would they want to eliminate Wills from the picture, I wonder.

[louis54]

I wonder what DeForest knew about the Wills incident. It's funny that he so casually mentions that the Tunney fight will "eliminate Wills from the picture."

Why would they want to eliminate Wills from the picture, I wonder.

Great stuff !

[HOUDINI563]

Fleischer wrote extensively about Dempseys hand wraps in “50 years at Ringside”. He watched Dempseys hands being wrapped with just gauze and adhesive tape. He further mentions Willard inspecting Dempseys wrapped hands in the ring. Again no issue.

Finally Dempsey came into the ring with his hands wrapped without gloves for anyone to see. Their are very clear photos of him sitting in his corner doing nothing to hide his wrapped hands. Dempseys was in the ring with pros all around. If anything was being done that gave him an unfair advantage it would have been point out. Nothing was said. Why? Because nothing was wrong.

Then one needs to explain the dynamics of how the choice of hand wrapping with fists encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves would have any added “cutting” effect. Those gloves were bricks to begin with. Choice of adhesive tape would not make them any harder.

[travestyny]

Fleischer wrote extensively about Dempseys hand wraps in ?0 years at Ringside? He watched Dempseys hands being wrapped with just gauze and adhesive tape. He further mentions Willard inspecting Dempseys wrapped hands in the ring. Again no issue.

Finally Dempsey came into the ring with his hands wrapped without gloves for anyone to see. Their are very clear photos of him sitting in his corner doing nothing to hide his wrapped hands. Dempseys was in the ring with pros all around. If anything was being done that gave him an unfair advantage it would have been point out. Nothing was said. Why? Because nothing was wrong.

Then one needs to explain the dynamics of how the choice of hand wrapping with fists encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves would have any added “cutting?effect. Those gloves were bricks to begin with. Choice of adhesive tape would not make them any harder.

Yes, we know. Fleischer also says in the same book that Jimmy Deforest admitted that he used a hardening adhesive on Dempsey's wraps. I've already told you that it's in the same book.

This is from Nat Fleischer: 50 years at Ringside

Deforest became riled when the loaded gloves stories began to appear. I recall a press conference he had with several reporters, including myself, at which he angrily remarked:

"I regard the stories I put plaster of Paris on Jack's bandages as plain libel. I'm tired of hearing people talk about such nonsense. It's pure trash. These rumors affect my reputations for honesty and fair dealing. I did not apply any foreign substance to them. I used a hard adhesive tape. This certainly was not irregular. It was not against the rules. It was the same kind of tape I always used when I bandaged Kid McCoy's hands."

Same as here in the NYT Ariticle:

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.?/b>

I've already shared an article above about the "trick" that Kid McCoy used, so I'm not going to post it again here. Just scroll up.

And we know that Willard took a look at the wraps. Look at the quotation from Deforest from the NYT article above.

The point is that they harden after the gloves are put on, according to Deforest.

I'm not sure if you've ever taken punches, but Willard has. That's the whole reason he made a big stink about the wraps BEFORE THIS FIGHT. You made the claim before that you can't feel the wraps through the gloves. Willard, who was in there taking shots, disagrees with you!

Willard said in newswire article just days before his butchering in Toledo. “Some fellows have wound adhesive tape so thickly that the fist felt like iron through the glove."

But we know that you know everything, so perhaps you know more than Willard regarding this?

[HOUDINI563]

First the information you posted you claim from 50 Years at Ringside is not within that book.

Secondly you can see Dempseys wrapped hands in very clear photos. There is no unusual thick padding being employed.

Third years later Willard when interviewed never mentioned thickly bandaged hand wraps as the reason for his injuries. He felt as if he was “jobbed” out of his title but never mentioned that Dempseys hand wrapping was the cause of his injuries.

Again Dempsey was in the ring gloveless surrounded by professionals. His wrapped hands were inspected by Willard and Willards corner. Nothing was considered an issue.

Forth please explain how choice of tape encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves, already hard as a brick, would do any more appreciable damage. Explain the mechanics while looking at Dempseys ungloved wrapped hands. He has no unusually thick wrapping on his hands.

[travestyny]

First the information you posted you claim from 50 Years at Ringside is not within that book.

Why are you lying?

Secondly you can see Dempseys wrapped hands in very clear photos. There is no unusual thick padding being employed.

Really?

On July 1 the matter was settled. “Jess Willard and Jack Dempsey will go into the ring for the heavyweight championship contest here Friday with bare hands, and all the bandaging and taping will be done in the view of the spectators and seconds of the heavyweight rivals. This announcement was made today by Tex Richard, promoter of the contest.?br />
Jack Kearns protested against this. The next day tex Rickard reversed his decision and announced that the fighters would tape their hands in their dressing room in the presence of a representative of the rival camp. The change occurred, Doc Kearns said “because of the blazing heat.?Another reason given was that to tape in the ring would create unnecessary delay. Either way, Dempsey entered the ring with hands heavily wrapped in tape and Willard had lost a critical battle to Doc Kearns.?br />

Same source as above:

Doyle noted that the men were supposed to enter the ring bare-handed and have their bandages applied in the ring. But they both came in with bandages on their hands. Dempsey “entered the ring taped well down the wrist almost to the finger tips.?/b> Willard, “to be sure, also entered with bandages on, but they barely ran around his big hands.?

Third years later Willard when interviewed never mentioned thickly bandaged hand wraps as the reason for his injuries. He felt as if he was “jobbed?out of his title but never mentioned that Dempseys hand wrapping was the cause of his injuries.

So? I never made a claim that he blamed his wraps. He sure did make a big stink about the wraps before the fight, didn't he?

Same source:

“The rules of the Boxing Commission in Toledo specified soft bandages. Willard declared that he planned to use plain cotton bandages with a couple of layers of surgical tape to hold the bandages in place. “that’s all I care to use, and I think Dempsey should feel the same way about it. I believe it always looks bad to the spectators to see a boxer come into the ring with his hands looking as hard as a club because protected by some heavy material.?/b>

And here:

Willard said that he would insist upon a thin layer of cotton surgical band aces, and only enough tape to hold the bandages in place.

Again Dempsey was in the ring gloveless surrounded by professionals. His wrapped hands were inspected by Willard and Willards corner. Nothing was considered an issue.

Already stated in The Magnificent Rube.

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.

Forth please explain how choice of tape encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves, already hard as a brick, would do any more appreciable damage. Explain the mechanics while looking at Dempseys ungloved wrapped hands. He has no unusually thick wrapping on his hands.

No problem. I'll let Willard explain it to you. How about you explain why we should believe you instead of Willard. Do share!

Once again, since apparently you didn't read it the first time.

Willard said in newswire article just days before his butchering in Toledo. “Some fellows have wound adhesive tape so thickly that the fist felt like iron through the glove."

And let's add this one for good measure:

When Willard spoke about having been up against slugs in his career prior to facing Dempsey, he was telling the truth. In 1913, Willard lost a 20-round decision to Gunboat Smith in a bout where Willard’s ear was shredded. Years later, Smith would tell Peter Heller just how Willard sustained such a grievous wound. “So in the tenth round I hit him with one of my right hands, but it was on the ear. Tore his ear right off. That hushed him up for the rest of the fight. The blood was running down, and oh God, I, of course, had my gloves ‘loaded.?I had insulation tape laid across my hands.?/b>

.

So should we believe you....or Willard? Or Gunboat Smith who admits his insulation tape ripped off Willard's ear. Oh, or Jimmy Deforest, who admit that the tape would harden to cause "unusual punishment." Oh, or Kid McCoy, who also used this "trick."
Hmmmmmm.


Did I answer all of your questions? Please answer mine and stop ducking now. Is the info. in the book or not? Can you confirm? And why should we believe you instead of Willard, Kid McCoy, Jimmy Deforest, and Gunboat Smith. How did his insulation tape get the job done through those gloves, I wonder. Hmmmm.

[HOUDINI563]

Again look at Dempseys wrapped hands. There is no excessive padding.

Please explain why padding with enhance punching power encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves. Explain the mechanics. The gloves are already hard as a brick.

Willard examined Dempseys gloves in the ring and found nothing irregular. He was in his right especially as champion to demand the wraps be changed if they were out of norm. He didn’t as they were not.

The wrappings that we’re used by Dempseys were within the rules of the time. Willard was free to use them as well as anyone Dempsey faced in the ring. Why are you attempting once again to discredit Dempsey when nothing he was doing was illegal?

[travestyny]

Again look at Dempseys wrapped hands. There is no excessive padding.

Please explain why padding with enhance punching power encased in 5 oz horse hair filled gloves. Explain the mechanics. The gloves are already hard as a brick.

Willard examined Dempseys gloves in the ring and found nothing irregular. He was in his right especially as champion to demand the wraps be changed if they were out of norm. He didn’t as they were not.

The wrappings that we’re used by Dempseys were within the rules of the time. Willard was free to use them as well as anyone Dempsey faced in the ring. Why are you attempting once again to discredit Dempsey when nothing he was doing was illegal?

I've already addressed all of your concerns. Your peek-a-boo style is old already. One day you are going to have to plant your feet and face your opponent instead of ducking and dodging.

Do you admit that the quotation is found in the book?

Do you see that Willard and others have already confirmed that hardened wraps can be felt through the gloves?

You always pose questions, but you never answer any. Ever. Do you care to answer the above questions.


As for the last part of your post, you can clearly see Deforest stated it was not illegal. That's because there weren't many rules back then. It was referred to as a "trick of the trade." I shouldn't have to keep repeating things that have already been established if you simply read and stop ignoring the information. One man had minimal wraps. The other had wraps that his trainer confirmed would cause "unusual punishment." Clearly this was used before as there is an article about Kid McCoy using this method...and who does Deforest say he wrapped Dempsey's hands like? Kid McCoy. Coincidence?

Will you plant your feet and answer my 2 questions above?

As for Willard's suggestion as champion, he tried. I posted this already. Why do I have to keep posting the same things over and over before you get it?

Willard said that he would insist upon a thin layer of cotton surgical band aces, and only enough tape to hold the bandages in place.