Chronology of 90's Pound for Pound Race

[Rusty Tromboni]

I'd say it was between Roy and Oscar. To be a fan at that time and watch their careers unfold was an exciting time to be a boxing fan. To watch Jones incredible hand speed and reflexes making easy work of his opponents and to watch Oscar break his opponents down as he got better with each fight was everything you could ask for from the sport. We can look back in hindsight and see flaws or second guess some of their decisions, but to be a fan at that time and follow their respective careers with anticipation of their next opponent and their path to greatness, that was part of the fun. Knowing Oscar would be on a collision course with Trinidad and the anticipation of that fight, only for the event to be a huge disappointment was a precursor to May/Pac. Both Oscar and Trinidad were considered the best of the division and neither of them fought that way.

Yeah, it was Oscar that kinda got me into Boxing. That coincided with my grandfather's death. He was a huge Boxing buff, and had been a sparring partner for Tommy Loughran. Oscar was skilled and a warrior, and sought out the best competition... maybe a little too emphatically.

But neither of them had the performances Chavez had, or the skill Whitaker had. That's kinda when I realized rankings are more a reflection of popularity or a tool for Social Justice Warriors, than an actual assessment of skill and achievement.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Toney was ranked pound for pound number one going into the Jones fight and Jones thrashed him. I think the Ring voted it the biggest, big fight thrashing in 20 years.

I am assuming you are basing that opinion off Jones losing to Tarver at the end of his career which was more due to age, weight loss etc.

I think the Toney win was probably a bit over rated because Toney cut so much weight but I don't think it would be accurate to say that Jones was a big fight choker.

You're right, the weight cut hurt Toney considerably. Jones was also a terrible style match-up. Frazier beat Ali, while Foreman couldn't... what relevance did that hold when Frazier met Foreman? Foreman destroyed Norton, what relevance did that hold when Ken met Ali?

Tarver was nothing special. While the massive weight cut was ******, it wasn't force upon Jones. After tasting Ruiz's power and knowing he couldn't count on the referee to help him win all of his fights, he wanted back at Light Heavyweight. Oh yeah... and there was that cheating bust...

Jones looked great against subpar competition, but a young Hopkins kept it competitive, an old McCallum refused to go away, and even Montell Griffin was holding it together against him. That tells me, that without drugs and against a steady diet of competition on par with what Whitaker and Chavez were forced to face, the perception of his greatness would have suffered considerably.

[Willie Pep 229]

You're right, the weight cut hurt Toney considerably. Jones was also a terrible style match-up. Frazier beat Ali, while Foreman couldn't... what relevance did that hold when Frazier met Foreman? Foreman destroyed Norton, what relevance did that hold when Ken met Ali?

Tarver was nothing special. While the massive weight cut was ******, it wasn't force upon Jones. After tasting Ruiz's power and knowing he couldn't count on the referee to help him win all of his fights, he wanted back at Light Heavyweight. Oh yeah... and there was that cheating bust...

Jones looked great against subpar competition, but a young Hopkins kept it competitive, an old McCallum refused to go away, and even Montell Griffin was holding it together against him. That tells me, that without drugs and against a steady diet of competition on par with what Whitaker and Chavez were forced to face, the perception of his greatness would have suffered considerably.

For me the tarnish on Jones appeared very early, the first Hopkins fight. For four rounds it looked to be a great fight with Jones likely coming out on top. Hopkins then went into a defensive posture and Jones was content to spar out the last 8 rounds. It turned into a real stinker of fight and Jones (likely due to my bias) never wowed me after that.

[QueensburyRules]

For me the tarnish on Jones appeared very early, the first Hopkins fight. For four rounds it looked to be a great fight with Jones likely coming out on top. Hopkins then went into a defensive posture and Jones was content to spar out the last 8 rounds. It turned into a real stinker of fight and Jones (likely due to my bias) never wowed me after that.

- -Not what I watched.

A frustrated Popkins chased the broken hand Jones all night.

The 2nd fight a farce shouldn't even been recorded much less made further shamed Popkins.

[GhostofDempsey]

Yeah, it was Oscar that kinda got me into Boxing. That coincided with my grandfather's death. He was a huge Boxing buff, and had been a sparring partner for Tommy Loughran. Oscar was skilled and a warrior, and sought out the best competition... maybe a little too emphatically.

But neither of them had the performances Chavez had, or the skill Whitaker had. That's kinda when I realized rankings are more a reflection of popularity or a tool for Social Justice Warriors, than an actual assessment of skill and achievement.

Yeah, rankings are a shell game, manipulated by promoters and sanctioning bodies. You can tell which fighters are being pushed to PPV stardom by how their potential opponents are ranked.

[QueensburyRules]

I'd say it was between Roy and Oscar. To be a fan at that time and watch their careers unfold was an exciting time to be a boxing fan. To watch Jones incredible hand speed and reflexes making easy work of his opponents and to watch Oscar break his opponents down as he got better with each fight was everything you could ask for from the sport. We can look back in hindsight and see flaws or second guess some of their decisions, but to be a fan at that time and follow their respective careers with anticipation of their next opponent and their path to greatness, that was part of the fun. Knowing Oscar would be on a collision course with Trinidad and the anticipation of that fight, only for the event to be a huge disappointment was a precursor to May/Pac. Both Oscar and Trinidad were considered the best of the division and neither of them fought that way.

- -Oscar vs Tito was a much better fight because they engaged to fight and we could see their wheels turning as they kept adjusting their styles. When Oscar chose his bike the last two rds, racially he picked the wrong strategy. Then and perhaps now Mexicans aren't allowed that option, but even Tito knew he didn't win that fight, hence no rematch.

All Floyd wanted to do was run from a one armed Asian dwarf like he'd been doing 6 yrs prior. He stunk so bad that the chorus of boos in his own hometown and home venue with his own judges and ref and sealed his fate.

He won time limited fight of retreat, but Manny won the war for the people.

[Stuart_boxer]

- -Not what I watched.

A frustrated Popkins chased the broken hand Jones all night.

The 2nd fight a farce shouldn't even been recorded much less made further shamed Popkins.

I didn't realise Jones had a broken hand in that fight.

I just googled it, it says on his wikipedia that he had a broken hand going in. I would have thought he would have pulled out if that were the case.

I don't think the passivity that Jones showed in that fight was inconsistent with other performances e.g Griffin 1 or against Mike Mccallum. There are times where a guy is injured and it becomes obvious.

Sounds like you would know more about this than me but I'm a bit skeptical about this story of a Jones hand injury in that fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

Yeah, rankings are a shell game, manipulated by promoters and sanctioning bodies. You can tell which fighters are being pushed to PPV stardom by how their potential opponents are ranked.

Here is kind of a weird way to look at it, but it's not necessarily a wrong. The wrong is our embracing of their actions.

These sanctioning bodies (and certainly any promoter's) job is to promote fights for profit.

Maybe we should just look at the WBC rankings as advertisements for their products (fighters under contract); that they put on an air of ranking legitimacy is only one more part of a marketing strategy.

In a very weird interpretation they do a good job at what they do . . . sell prize fights, and that means making them appear more important/significant then they are.

They have a free enterprise right to do what they do, it is up to us to buy in, or not.

If we force upon the fight game, an honest, government regulated ranking wouldn't we be denying individual enterprise with yet more socialism? And I mean this includes the fighters themselves, many of whom prefer to work with a sanctioning body that is willing to promote them for a price.

For purists like us, we want fairness, almost everybody else involved just want to make money, and it's probably not our right to get in the way of that.

[GhostofDempsey]

Here is kind of a weird way to look at it, but it's not necessarily a wrong. The wrong is our embracing of their actions.

These sanctioning bodies (and certainly any promoter's) job is to promote fights for profit.

Maybe we should just look at the WBC rankings as advertisements for their products (fighters under contract); that they put on an air of ranking legitimacy is only one more part of a marketing strategy.

In a very weird interpretation they do a good job at what they do . . . sell prize fights, and that means making them appear more important/significant then they are.

They have a free enterprise right to do what they do, it is up to us to buy in, or not.

If we force upon the fight game, an honest, government regulated ranking wouldn't we be denying individual enterprise with yet more socialism? And I mean this includes the fighters themselves, many of whom prefer to work with a sanctioning body that is willing to promote them for a price.

For purists like us, we want fairness, almost everybody else involved just want to make money, and it's probably not our right to get in the way of that.

The problem with this is that we end up with inflated rankings, which encourages mismatches. This also impacts a fighter's legacy, being granted undeserved credit for defeating a "#1" ranked opponent who was ranked for the purpose of elevating their career to begin with.

In a perfect world the best would fight the best and on the basis of elimination the last man standing gets the title shot. Unfortunately boxing has a long history of corruption. When the mob got pushed out of the sport the corruption was taken over by sanctioning bodies, promoters and networks.

[QueensburyRules]

You're right, the weight cut hurt Toney considerably. Jones was also a terrible style match-up. Frazier beat Ali, while Foreman couldn't... what relevance did that hold when Frazier met Foreman? Foreman destroyed Norton, what relevance did that hold when Ken met Ali?

Tarver was nothing special. While the massive weight cut was ******, it wasn't force upon Jones. After tasting Ruiz's power and knowing he couldn't count on the referee to help him win all of his fights, he wanted back at Light Heavyweight. Oh yeah... and there was that cheating bust...

Jones looked great against subpar competition, but a young Hopkins kept it competive

- -Popkorns was the vastly more mature, prime age fighter and was clowned by Roy.

Worse, in the rematch that he'd been years skipping, Popkorns burst into tears early that lasted all the way into his post fight dressing room.

Only in boxing, folks!