1974 Ali vs 1963 Ali

[K-DOGG]

Here's a suggestion. When a fighter begins his career, most of the time he doesn't want to get hit or like getting hit; but as his carreer progresses, he gets used to getting hit, accepts it as part of the game and doesn't feel "right" if he doestn' get his dose of pain, so to speak....so, he expects to get hit, whereas a younger man may expect to get hit; but doestn' really accept it as a possibility and does everything he can to keep it from happening. So, when he gets caught with a good one, he goes down because he didn't anticipate it.

It is a common addage that the punch that knocks you out is the one you didn't see. I suggest that a veteran fighte may have the appearance of having a "better" chin; but in reality, he is just more ready for the contact and therefore not as effected by it....until the concrete has been chipped away to the point to where he doesn't have a choice.

[Heckler]

Ali's chin in the late sixties was just as good as ever... he wasn't knocked down or hurt between 64-67. This topic come up in one of my physiology papers at uni... When we say 'chin' we are referring to the brains ability to keep functioning in moments of impact. After physical maturity (avg age 23-24... decline avg after age 28)its impossible to develop a better 'chin'. In 1966 against Cleveland Williams Ali weighed 213 pounds, a pound heavier then he was in the rematch against Ken Norton in 1973... His upper body musculature was just as as good as it ever would be. Ali was physically mature at this point in his career. Very early in his career when he was dropped he was naieve, very green, and lacking the prowess in the ring he developed later..... against Sonny banks he was a mere 195 pounds, he got tagged with a left and banks scored a flash knockdown... Clay was more shocked then hurt and continued on. Against Cooper he was clowning around, coasting and attempting to carry Cooper into the round he predicted he would win in. He got tagged by a short, sharp, left hook right on the button that he didn't see coming and was in real trouble... This would never happen in the first place later in his career.

[butterfly1964]

Ali's chin in the late sixties was just as good as ever... he wasn't knocked down or hurt between 64-67. This topic come up in one of my physiology papers at uni... When we say 'chin' we are referring to the brains ability to keep functioning in moments of impact. After physical maturity (avg age 23-24... decline avg after age 28)its impossible to develop a better 'chin'. In 1966 against Cleveland Williams Ali weighed 213 pounds, a pound heavier then he was in the rematch against Ken Norton in 1973... His upper body musculature was just as as good as it ever would be. Ali was physically mature at this point in his career. Very early in his career when he was dropped he was naieve, very green, and lacking the prowess in the ring he developed later..... against Sonny banks he was a mere 195 pounds, he got tagged with a left and banks scored a flash knockdown... Clay was more shocked then hurt and continued on. Against Cooper he was clowning around, coasting and attempting to carry Cooper into the round he predicted he would win in. He got tagged by a short, sharp, left hook right on the button that he didn't see coming and was in real trouble... This would never happen in the first place later in his career.

Good post.

[QueensburyRules]

Well, first off, Ali or Clay fought Liston in '64, not '63; but I know what you mean.

And, I'll say this, Ali after the layoff did not punch as hard as he did beforehand due to hand problems. Dr. Pachecho has said that after the layoff, Ali's hands hurt him constantly and he had to give Ali shots of novacane between each knuckle before every fight in his second career.

That being said, Clay in 1964, was faster, hit harder, and was decidely more mobile than Ali was post 1970. Who would win?

I'd have to favor Clay. Ali had more experience it's true; but he wasn't a great stalker, so to speak, in his second career. In his first career he danced circles around guys; but he also attacked while he danced...something an old Ali didn't really do.

I'd pick Clay to win by a decision.

- -These stylistic/physiologic differences before and after always comes up in long layoffs that ironically Dempsey, Louis, and Ali share.

Vitali Klitschko came back seamlessly after 4 years layoff, but he'd been a steady spar for Wlad and vice versa during their careers.

Actually Dempsey was always in Training for the next Wills offer, Louis sparred service personell during Ww2, one of whom I later worked with, and Ali doing his collegiate speech tour hit the gym in every community he was in.

In summary, seldom is an older fighter the same as his youth. We wax and wane over all our years.

New George vs Old George?

[K-DOGG]

- -These stylistic/physiologic differences before and after always comes up in long layoffs that ironically Dempsey, Louis, and Ali share.

Vitali Klitschko came back seamlessly after 4 years layoff, but he'd been a steady spar for Wlad and vice versa during their careers.

Actually Dempsey was always in Training for the next Wills offer, Louis sparred service personell during Ww2, one of whom I later worked with, and Ali doing his collegiate speech tour hit the gym in every community he was in.

In summary, seldom is an older fighter the same as his youth. We wax and wane over all our years.

New George vs Old George?

That one is a true oddity. I actually believe the old man could do it. Old George was just as tough; but far more patient. It would depend on his younger self making the same mistake he did against Ali, though, and going all out for the knockout....which, I actually think he would probably do.

Does he get winded enough for old George to get him in trouble? Maybe. Stop him flat out? Probably not; but I could see the ref waving it off after three knockdowns late.

[QueensburyRules]

That one is a true oddity. I actually believe the old man could do it. Old George was just as tough; but far more patient. It would depend on his younger self making the same mistake he did against Ali, though, and going all out for the knockout....which, I actually think he would probably do.

Does he get winded enough for old George to get him in trouble? Maybe. Stop him flat out? Probably not; but I could see the ref waving it off after three knockdowns late.

- -Some hypotheticals have an etched in stone quality to them. Others are cheap grabs at space dust.

I used to match myself against myself incessantly thru time and could come up with no clear conclusion.

However, when I started studying and training in boxing and studying the new kid on the block, mma, in spite of the passage of Time, I felt like the ol guy could take the new guy, but make no mistake, my new guy was operating on prenatural premordial instincts that my experience and training may have buried over time.

The proverbial conundrum wrapped up in an enigma and sealed in the Holy Grail.