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Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

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    #1

    Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

    Help me out here. Looking back on this fight from June 2009, I have to question what warranted the vacant lineal HW title (not The Ring title) to be at stake.

    Wladimir was obviously consensus #1, but surely Vitali was #2? So whether he would've fought Haye as scheduled, or Chagaev as he did, how could the lineal title have been on the line when those two were #3 and #4 at best?

    Or, am I getting my rankings wrong – was Vitali not considered #2 due him having only recently returned? Also, we had that ridiculous WBA situation where Chagaev and Valuev were co-champions right up until Chagaev was stripped before the fight. Was Chagev therefore #2 after all, based on recent resume?

    Considering all that, I believe the previous HW lineage should've started from Wladimir–Haye in 2011 instead. Unless, again, Vitali was #2 by this point.
    #2
    Not sure about Chagaev, but Wlad was either number one or Ring Champion until he lost to Fury. 2006 on I believe. But it does seem odd that the Chagaev fight was lineal, because Vits was ranked number two in 2008 and 2009.

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      #3
      Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
      Not sure about Chagaev, but Wlad was either number one or Ring Champion until he lost to Fury. 2006 on I believe. But it does seem odd that the Chagaev fight was lineal, because Vits was ranked number two in 2008 and 2009.
      Yea, Wladimir was #1 by The Ring when they handed out the vacant title for the Chagaev fight, but if they had the latter at #2 it baffles me. The TBRB wasn't yet formed, so I can't find other rankings to go by.

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        #4
        Wlad was #1, Vitali #2 and Chagaev #3.

        #2 Vitali refused to fight #1 Wlad (understandable).

        So, if #2 rejects to fight #1, the offer to fight #1 (for the vacant lineal title) goes to #3.

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          #5
          --- There is no lineal belt or org unless the tooth fairy runs it.

          Wlad fought #3 Chagaev just like AJ fought #3 Parker, but only Wlad awarded the ring title. Boxing is as dyslexically bipolar as it gets.

          Only fighter caring about the lineal title is Fury who vacated his titles by his actions. Notice nobody cares about the other 16 division lineal titles, so I guess you could say the lineal heavy title moaners are "special!"

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            #6
            Originally posted by Ben Bolt View Post
            Wlad was #1, Vitali #2 and Chagaev #3.

            #2 Vitali refused to fight #1 Wlad (understandable).

            So, if #2 rejects to fight #1, the offer to fight #1 (for the vacant lineal title) goes to #3.
            Do you not think that devalues the lineal title? Why not just wait it out until there is a clear number 2 willing to fight? Just seems forced to me.

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              #7
              Perhaps my "old school" is showing but my interpretation of lineal is not the same of all modern fans. To me to be handed the lineal title, you need to take all the titles to be undisputed and not just beat the next available top contender because you don't want to fight the best other fighter(champion) in your weight class. I understand The Klitschko's refusing to fight their brother. But you just can't name one of them lineal champion, ring champion I understand but the two are not truly the same. Sure it sells better giving one the "title". Let's for the sake of conversation say AJ and Wilder fight and the winner fights Fury. I would consider the final winner lineal, because it's undisputed and "the man who beat the man etc".
              However if the Ring decided if Joshua beat Whyte lineal or Wilder beat Fury lineal based on the top two willing fighters to face each other. I would rightfully object. like I said, perhaps my "oldschool" is showing

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                #8
                --- Ring don't consider any title lineal.

                Pray to the tooth fairy and maybe she'll leave the all time lineal list under your pillow.

                Now we're talkin'!

                Comment

                  #9
                  I believe the consensus was that a new lineage can be established if #1 fights #2 alternately #3 if there is a sound reason as to why #2 cannot fight.

                  The rankings was Wlad, Vitali, Chagaev. Since the brothers obviously didn’t want to fight each other, the general consensus was that Wlad-Chagaev was for the lineal title.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
                    Do you not think that devalues the lineal title? Why not just wait it out until there is a clear number 2 willing to fight? Just seems forced to me.
                    It doesn’t devalue the linieal title because it had never happened before or after that barring an injury which would get the ranking changed. It wasn’t a loophole, it’s just a rule that was never used before because why would a perfectly healthy #2 fighter refuse to fight the champion for all of the marbles?

                    There had also been a vacancy in the linage for about 5 years already. Nobody knew how long Vitali would be back for, etc. Etc.

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