A Peculiar Offer By Dempsey: Winner Take All vs. Wills

[travestyny]

Again you look to the micro to prove a pre conceived agenda and ignore the much more important Macro history. The color line was not a Dempsey creation as you try to portray. It was an American cultural tradition. This is one reason why only Johnson (fighting a non American hwt champion) and Louis (who had to portray himself in a manner to allow the bout to occur) were the only black hwts to fight a white hwt champion in 80 plus years. You ignore this very major historical and cultural issue since you want to fashion your data to lead everyone to your prearranged conclusion.

Dudeee...I never ever stated or implied that the color-line was a Dempsey invention. I don't know where you got that from.

I just took the time to go through all of the history, like you've been asking me to do, and you still find fault and falsely accuse me of something I didn't do. I said he drew the color line. I didn't say he invented it!


Also, after adhering to your request to look into the entire history, I asked you just to address one part, and you still haven't done it. You seem to be avoiding it, to be honest.

[travestyny]

1922, The year Harry Wills almost got a shot at the HW Title.

The Dempsey-Wills saga as told by the New York Times' headlines; dates denote newspaper publishing date; I attempted to put the headlines in italics, but it did not transfer from MS Word. Too much work to correct now, you will have to discern my remarks form the quoted materials.

The period covered: July 1919 through December 1922. (This still needs work but I am going to post it, as is, for now. I am working on 1923.)


1919

Key Event: July 4th, 1919 Dempsey over Willard for HW Crown KO 3/25

July 6th 1919 - Dempsey Will Meet Only White Boxers - Dempsey quoted “I will pay no attention to Negro fighters.” Only the first paragraph deals with the ‘color line’ issue, the rest is a recap of the Willard fight from just two days earlier.

1920

July 19th 1920 – Color Line Erased by Jack Dempsey - Champion Reverses Attitude and Announces he’ll Take on Wills and Anybody Else – Says he Needs the Money.

Key Event: July 26th, 1920 - Wills over Fulton KO 3/12

July 27th 1920 – Wills Knockouts Fulton in Third – The article makes no mention of Dempsey except to say that Fred Fulton had been a contender for Dempsey’s title; no mention of a possible Dempsey-Wills bout.

1921

May 27th, 1921 – Dusky Battlers to Meet [this is a Wills- Clem Johnson fight announcement] - Article states that “many critics have openly declared that Wills is the best big Negro in the ring today” It also states that “Wills is clamoring for a chance to meet the winner of Dempsey-Carpentier.”

June 4th, 1921 – Atlantic City Odds 3 to 1 on Dempsey - Preparing for the Carpentier fight Kearns replies to what must have been a challenge by Harry Wills, stating that “the negro heavyweight is merely seeking a bit of cheap publicity in offering to come here [Dempsey’s training camp] and attempt to knock Dempsey out, without pay.”

Key Event: July 2nd, 1921 – Dempsey over Carpentier KO 4/12

July 4th, 1921 – Dempsey to Rest and Enjoy Himself - “Kearns says he is prepared to accept a match against Harry Wills if promoters are ready to arrange such a bout.” [Emphasis is mine.] -“Such a bout” seems to be a enthusiasm for an interracial bout; it appears often when the fight is mentioned.

July 7th 1921 – Dempsey-Johnson Bout Proposed - A promoter J.W. McCaw offers Doc Kearns $200,000 for a Dempsey-[Jack] Johnson fight. Added headline claims Kearns Not Enthusiastic.

July 9th 1921 – Dempsey Draws Color line, Unwilling to Meet Johnson. Dempsey is quoted as saying he was unwilling to fight Jack Johnson, “or any other negro fighter.”

December 25th, 1921 - Sport Has Banner Year During 1921 - An assessment of the year in sports; the final line in the boxing section reads: “Harry Wills and Bill Brennan are the only other heavyweights of any class, aside from Dempsey.” (Article speaks mostly of the lighter weights.)

January, 1922

January 2nd, 1922 – Comment on Current Events in Sports – Boxing Section: This article kicks off the new year by stating: “At this time there is not a heavyweight on the horizon who appears to have a chance with Dempsey.” The article berates Fred Fulton as a loser but makes no mention of Harry Wills.

Key Event: January 17th, 1922 - Wills over Langford PTS 10/10

January 26th, 1922 - Dempsey Is Eager for a Bout Soon - Kearns mentions Wills on the short list with Brennan, Gibbons, and Roper but then adds “I have discussed the prospects of a Wills match with several promoters throughout the country and I have yet to find one favorable to such a proposition.”

January 27th, 1922 – Brady Would Stage Dempsey-Wills Go - Bill Brady of Jeffries-Corbett fame, calls Kearns’ bluff: “Brady is said to be willing to guarantee $200,000 for the match.” In response Tex Rickard is quoted as saying: “Wills is the foremost of Dempsey’s rivals and that such a match between the two men should produce an exciting bout,” but now believes that “public sentiment is against such a contest.”[Emphasis is mine.]

January 29th, 1922 - Brady Posts His Check for $50,000 – Says it’s Kearns Move – Situation is Deadlocked – Both Sides Profess Willingness to Go Ahead, but Neither will Make Advances for a Conference. – Brady and Kearns argue over who should approach who first [it became a pissing contest]; Kearns also claims he wants another Brennan fight first.

January 30th, 1922 – Comment on Current Events in Sports – Boxing Section: Kearns ‘calls’ Brady’s bluff. - Kearns claims Brady’s $200,000 (75% to Dempsey) offer for a Wills fight is too low and calls on Brady to come find him, instead of talking through the newspapers; egos still flaring on both sides.

January 30th, 1922 – Harry Wills to Referee – Article reads: “Harry Wills, New Orleans colored heavyweight, who is being mentioned as a prospective opponent of Champion Jack Dempsey, is scheduled to . . .” [I included this because I felt it shows that The Times was deliberately keeping Wills in the Headlines; I feel The Times was quietly championing Harry Wills’ cause.]

January 31st, 1922 - Dempsey to Meet Brennan in Garden [fight announcement] – Kearns and Brady debate Wills fight again, same arguments over money ensue; plus another argument over who should approach who first; both invite the other to their offices, neither will move first. [Pissing contest continues.]

February, 1922

February 2nd, 1922 - Brady Not to Get Bout for $200,000 – Kearns Wants Bigger Purse before He Will Match Dempsey and Wills – Kearns is quoted: “Wills I admit, is a strong, rugged heavyweight, and looks like the best prospect for a title-bout right now. I’m ready to close for Dempsey just as suitable terms are offered.” Kearns offers no dollar figure.

February 14th, 1922 - No Dempsey Bout for Indoor Season – Kearns Gives up Hope of Fight for Champion before Open-Air Months Arrive – Kearns quoted: “The Brennan [re]match has been discouraged. That leaves Wills as the most formable rival for the champ. As of yet, however, I have not heard any attractive inducements for a Wills match. . .”

February 28th, 1922 - No site Picked for Dempsey-Wills Go – Flournoy and Kearns Deny Report Boyle’s Thirty Acres has been Chosen for Bout – Article seems to be dispelling a rumor that the fight had been signed. “There is not a thing in it,” declared Frank Flournoy [MSG matchmaker] - The article also digresses into dispelling another rumor that Dempsey would travel to Europe for a Carpentier rematch and instead claims a July 4th fight with Jack Johnson, in Mexico City, was in the works. (Yea, that Jack Johnson, and in Mexico no less.)

March, 1922

March 2nd, 1922 - Norfolk and Wills in Garden Tonight – Winner of Fifteen-Round Bout May Get Chance to Meet Dempsey for Title – The article claims that Dempsey has announced “his willingness to lift the ban on colored fighters” and thus concludes that winner will likely get a shot at the title. The article mentions that Dempsey will be in attendance.

March 2nd, 1922 - Wills over Norfolk KO 2/15

March 4th, 1922 – Edwards Will Not Oppose Big Bout – Jersey Governor will sanction Dempsey-Wills Meeting if Public Demands Contest – The NJ State Boxing Commission took umbrage at the Governor’s statement, forcing him to walk it back, with the Governor adding that he was just offering his own opinion and that “the final say laid with the State Boxing Commission and the people of New Jersey.”

March 5th, 1922 - Harry Frazee makes Jack Dempsey Offer of $350,000 for Title Bout with Wills – Red Sox owner Harry Frazee offers Kearns $350,000 for the fight. (Dempsey would receive 100% of the $350,000 guarantee.)

March 5th, 1922 - Awaits Definite Offer from Frazee – Kearns denies any commitment to the fight; claims he is ready to sign but questions Frazee’s ability to find a venue; Kearns bemoans that he has seen no money from Frazee.

March 6th, 1922 - Big Bout Not for Boston - Commission Takes Stand against Proposed Dempsey-Wills Fight – The State Boxing Commission (unnecessarily) announces that if the fight should occur it will not be held at Fenway Park. The Chairman speaking for the committee stated: “The attitude of the Commissioners from the start has been not to allow such bouts.” [Emphasis is mine.] Like Huckleberry Finn the fight was banned in Boston.

April, 1922

April 2nd, 1922 – Rickard is Firmly Decided on Bout – Reiterates Statement that he Does Not Want to Stage the Dempsey-Wills Go – The article now refers to Wills as: “Harry Wills, giant New Orleans negro who is regarded as the most dangerous contender to the title.” – While Rickard again admits that Dempsey-Wills “looms as the most attractive match available” but claims, yet again, that a venue for the fight cannot be found and that, “unless the public demands it he would not associate himself with a mixed bout.”

April 24th, 1922 – Kearns Sends Word of Foreign Offers – Says Europeans are Angling for Dempsey Bout with Wills or Carpentier – Kearns claims to have an offer from English promoter George McDonald for Dempsey-Wills fight and hints at the possibility of a Carpentier rematch. Paddy Mullins, Wills manager, denies any knowledge of Kearns purported dealings but declares that Wills “is ready to meet Dempsey for the title any place, any time.”

April 6th, 1922 - Champion in Chicago – Dempsey Willing to Give Bill Tate Chance at Title – Article is a announcement of Dempsey’s intention to sail for Europe. The article added that Dempsey “has a good word for Tate, his former sparring partner. Jack asserted that as long as Tate has proved himself a better man than Harry Wills” there was a fight in the offing. (Just three months earlier Tate and Wills had gone 1-1-1- with each other and were both claiming the Color Heavyweight Title.) Howard Carr, Bill Tate’s manger, claims Dempsey gave him a firm promise to fight if “any promoter will offer reasonable terms.”

May, 1922

May 5th, 1922 – Dempsey May Box Willard in Jersey – The article is a Rickard PR piece with Rickard speculating about possible fights and venues – Rickard once again points to Dempsey-Wills as the “most logical” fight to promote but Rickard quickly reiterates the “difficulty a promoter might encounter if he were to undertake the promotion.”

My 8th, 1922 – Comment on Current Events in Sports – Boxing Section: The article suggests that Kearns isn’t willing to cross the “color line” for fear of diminished gate receipts. Article includes no first-hand interviews, only speculation, but. It does suggest that the public has the fight on its mind.

May 11th, 1922 - Dempsey May Box Wills in Montreal – Matchmaker Flournoy of Garden Makes Secret Visit to Canada – has Strong Backing – Frank Flournoy is quoted as saying: “I have been in conference with influential and prominent business men of Montreal.” – Flournoy refuses to confirm that he made a $300,000 offer to Dempsey. Wills is once again referred to as the “giant New Orleans negro,” but otherwise ignored.

Key Event: May 11th, 1922 Georges Carpentier over Ted (kid) Lewis KO 1/12

May 12th, 1922 – Montreal Trip Fruitless – One day later Frank Flournoy offers a less rosy view of the Montreal situation and switches the conversation to Carpenter’s victory over Ted (Kid) Lewis. Flournoy now suggests that “Dempsey’s next bout, in response to the general demand in Europe, would be with the French champion, in London.”

May 15th, 1922 - Comment on Current Events in Sports – Boxing Section: “Georges Carpentier is to make another effort to vanquish Jack Dempsey, world’s heavyweight champion. Unless the dark shadow cast by the form of Harry Wills intervenes, Dempsey and Carpentier will clash in a return battle some place in Europe within the next year.” [I didn’t need to emphasis that one, now did I?]

May 18th, 1922 – Tex Awaits Dempsey with Contract to Fight Wills – This article seems to be a Tex Rickard PR piece. Rickards says he is ready, upon Dempsey’s return from Europe, to sign Dempsey to a Wills fight in Montreal. There is no mention of a date or guarantee, nor how Rickard became involved with the Montreal deal, but there is other evidence that Rickard and Flournoy were working together on the side.

May 20th, 1922 – Dempsey, Sporting Monocle, Back Home – Ready to Fight Anyone – The article states: “The titleholder, sporting a monocle and feeling wonderful, expressed his willingness to box Harry Wills.” – Dempsey is quoted as saying: “I’ll fight Wills. Certainly! Why Not? – But once again Dempsey brings up how difficult it will be to promote the fight. Dempsey drops a bombshell, adding: “We signed with London promoters for a bout with Carpentier, to be held sometime between now and June, 1923. People over there are crazy about another fight between Carpentier and myself.” [SIC]

May 20th, 1922 – Decision on the Dempsey-Wills Bout Likely to be Made Today. – Kearns PR piece. Article states that Kearns and Frank Flournoy met the night before at a Madison Square Garden exhibition charity fundraiser (all four round fights, featuring Benny Leonard); Kearns claims he is anticipating a big meeting with Rickard. On introduction Dempsey is roundly cheered by the crowd. No mention of Harry Wills being at the fight.

May 21st, 1922 – Dempsey’s Match with Wills is Off – Champion Rejects Meeting in Montreal July 1, Due to Lack of Time for Training – Tex Rickard uses Dempsey’s statement to add: “I see no chance to hold a bout between Dempsey and Wills in Montreal as had been planned.” – [Montreal fight looks to be off, maybe!]

May 23rd, 1922 – To Talk Terms Today – Kearns and Rickard Will Discuss a Dempsey-Wills Meeting – Rickard throws a wet blanket on the entire endeavor with this press release, restating that the Montreal bout has been abandoned and doesn’t see how it can be promoted.

May 24th, 1922 – Deny Dempsey-Wills Terms are settled – Article seems to be dispelling a rumor that the fight was signed. Further in the article Tex Rickard claims that the problem lays with Kearns who is asking for too much money: “When he told me he wanted $500,000 for the Champion, I asked him if he was crazy.”

May 24th, 1922 – Jersey Bans Big Bouts – Will Not Issue Permit for Dempsey to meet Wills or Willard – State Boxing Commission Chairman Messano on Wills match:” “No permit will be granted . . . because I do not think there is a public demand for such a bout. [Emphasis is mine.]

June, 1922

June 14th, 1922 – Wills Posts $2,500 For Dempsey Fight – Negro deposits Forfeit with Sate Commission to Force Match With Champion – Chairman Muldoon (NYSAC) Intimates [SIC] Title-Holder Cannot Hide Behind Big Financial Demand – Kearns and Dempsey were in L.A., and were unable to be reached for comment.

June 15th, 1922 – Rickard May Build New Fight Stadium – Promoter Ready if Proposed Dempsey-Wills Match Materializes in this State – In what seems to be a PR interview Rickard looks like he is reacting to the previous June 14th post; he seems to have a ‘just in case this does happen I want in’ attitude. Rickard once again claims support for a Dempsey-Wills fight but once again bemoans Kearns $500,000 guarantee, stating “the day of huge big guarantees is passed as far as I am concerned.” Article also states that Paddy Mullins (Will’s manager) met with Flournoy (of the Garden), but no news is offered. The article ends with an announcement that Jess Willard was coming east looking for a fight.

June 20th, 1922 – Jack Kearns, at Chicago, Says Dempsey Has Not Barred Wills – Kearns seems to be looking for an independent deal (without Rickard) claims he was dealing with a Michigan City promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons regarding a Dempsey- Brennan or Willard fight on Labor Day; pressed with a “color line” question Kearns says “a fight with Wills might take place . . . but it probably would be held in the east.” – adding “if the public wanted the fight it would happen.”

June 21st, 1922 - May Settle Wills and Dempsey Bout – Kearns and Rickard Expected to Discuss Terms for Match at Meeting Today – The article reports yet another announced meeting between Kearns and Rickard; mostly an op-ed piece with no new information but a comprehensive summary of the current situation.

June 22nd, 1922 – Says Dempsey will Accept Wills Bout – Kearns Declares Guarantee of Site is only real Difficulty to be Overcome –

June 23rd, 1922 – Rickard to Stage Dempsey-Wills Go – After Conference with Kearns Promoter Says he Will Go Ahead with Bout –

June 24th, 1922 – Preparing to Sign Articles for Bout – Rickard, Dempsey and Wills Expected to Take Definite Action Within Week – Commission Issues Edict - Warns Kearns that Negro’s Challenge Must be Accepted or Declined by July 10 – NYSAC (Muldoon) warns Dempsey that he may be stripped of title if he does not sign to fight Wills before July 10th. [I would like to add a personal note here: there is some evidence that Muldoon was fronting for some Tammany Hall politicians who had bought-up Wills contract.]

June 25th, 1922 – Dempsey and Wills will Sign Tuesday – Rickard Must Give Ninety Days’ Notice of Time and Place of Bout – Dempsey reacting to Muldoon’s threat, is quoted: The New York Boxing Commission “is the bunk” – “[I am] ready to meet any man in the world if [I] can get a fair percentage . . . but no promoter has made an offer worth considering.”

June 26th, 1922 – Dempsey Arrives Here from Coast – Heavyweight Champion Declares he is Anxious to Fight Wills for Title –

June 27th, 1922 – Fight Articles to be Signed Today – Rickard Announces that Dempsey and Wills will be Formally Matched for Title – A PR release for Rickard stating that a meeting between Kearns and Mullins is set and that he has verbal insurances from both men ‘that they are ready to sign.’ – Kearns, the day before, was not so cooperative telling The Times that he doesn’t plan on signing any papers at the meeting. Kearns then failed to show for the meeting; no deal was made.

June 26th, 1922 - Comment on Current Events in Sports – Boxing Section: Op-ed piece [re]mentioning that the NYSAC has warned Dempsey that if he fails to sign to fight Wills before July 10th the title will be considered vacant. Article mentions that the NYSAC had already stripped Johnny Kilbane and Johnny Wilson [MW] of their titles.

June 28th, 1922 – Hitch in Dempsey-Wills Bout Plans – Signing of Articles Deferred – Kearns and Mullins Fail to Appear – This time both managers refused to attend the Rickard’s meeting.

June 30th, 1922 – Dempsey Accepts Will’s Challenge – Heavyweight Champion and his manager So Notify State Athletic Commission – May Also Meet Greb – John McGarvey of Pittsburgh Offers $100,000 for Bout in the Smoky City – This looks to be a Kearns press release. Kearns seems to be throwing up a smoke screen regarding the threat to strip Dempsey of the title.

June 30th, 1922 – Governor Adopts ‘Hands Off’ Stand on Dempsey-Wills Bout – Governor Miller (NY) states he has “no objection to a black man fighting a white [man].”

July, 1922

July 2nd, 1922 – Jack Dempsey off on Exhibition Trip – Will Open in Oklahoma City, Returning here Saturday to Sign Articles with Wills –

July 3rd, 1922 – Mullins Waits to Hear from Kearns – Manager of Wills Says he has Heard Nothing Definite about Fight with Dempsey –

July 4th, 1922 – Dempsey to Sign with Wills First – Offers for Title Bouts with Meehan, Greb, and Others Must Wait, Says McKetrick – McKetrick speaking for Kearns dispels rumors of a Meehan and Greb fight; McKetrick claims all other fights off until Dempsey-Wills is signed. Article is mainly a press release regarding Dempsey’s travels and possible entertainment engagements.

July 6th, 1922 – Rickard Expects Prompt Action – Promoter Believes Dempsey and Wills will Sign for Title Bout Saturday –

July 7th, 1922 – Dempsey-Willard Fight is Probable – Former Champion’s manager Says Bout before Oct. 1 is Practically Assured – Kearns begins touting a Dempsey-Willard fight.

July 8th, 1922 – Boxing Managers May Sign Today – Kearns and Mullins Expected to Affix Names to Contract for Dempsey-Wills Bout –

July 9th, 1922 - Dempsey and Wills Still Unmatched – Managers of Heavyweight Boxers Fail to Reach Agreement after Long Session – Mullins will Not Sign – Insists on clause to insure Championship Contest Before End of This Year –

July 10th, 1922 – Kearns Waits for $100,000 Promoter – Dempsey’s manager fails to Hear from Pittsburgher About Match with Harry Greb –

July 11th, 1922 - May Settle Fight Differences Today – Kearns and Mullins to Confer Again Over Proposed Dempsey-Wills Match –

July 12th, 1922 – Dempsey and Wills Agreement Signed – Representatives of Boxers Affix Signatures to Articles for Title Bout – Time and Place Unnamed – Mullins Withdraws his Demand limiting Bidding for Contest to Thirty Days - This looks to be Harry Wills’ best chance at a title shot, but . . .

July 13th, 1922 – Rickard Mentions June 30 as Date – Prospective Promoter of Dempsey-Wills Bout Favors Saturday before July 4th, 1923 –

July 14th, 1922 – First Offer Made for Dempsey-Wills Bout – J. M. Butterly would Stage Contest at Dyckman Oval this September – makes no mention of guarantee.

July 23rd, 1922 – By Products – an op-ed piece bemoaning the growing frustration of the public: “Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills have signed a declaration of war, to take effect whenever they get around to it.”

July 24th, 1922 – Wants Big title Bout – Margolies S. C. of Arverne Makes bid for Dempsey-Wills Fight – [Margolies Sporting Club, New York, NY]

August, 1922

August 7th, 1922 – Kearns Here for Fight Conference – Manager of Dempsey will Talk with promoter Rickard about match with Wills – First line of the article reads: “Important developments are expected . . .” then nothing new is offered.

August 8th, 1922 – Dempsey May Box in South America – Tex Rickard is Considering Promotion of Bout with Firpo, Argentine Heavyweight – Rickard press release mainly dodges Wills issue still bemoaning that the money isn’t there; Kearns claims Rickard and other promoters are at fault for delay, not him.

August 9th, 1922 – Wills Bout No Nearer – Kearns goes to Chicago, Leaving Heavyweight Fight Still in Air –

August 19th, 1922 – Boxing is Assured for Polo Grounds – License granted to Republic Athletic Club – Offer Made for Dempsey-Wills Bout – John M. O’Connor, President of the Republic A. C. armed with a license to stage a fight at the Polo Grounds began new negotiations to get the Dempsey-Wills fight. – Article also notes that the Governor of Michigan, McCray has put the ‘stink’ on the Dempsey-Brennan rematch (Labor Day fight canceled) O’Conner now believes he has a shot at signing Dempsey-Wills.

August 25th, 1922 – Rickard Planning Dempsey-Firpo Go - Promoter Hopes to Stage Battle for World’s Title in South America this Year – Rickard mentions (again) that Wills is the only ‘real’ American challenger but then offers the usual counter argument “but it is impossible too stage that bout within the next year.” – No explanations as to why it is ‘impossible’ are offered.

August 26th, 1922 – Kingston Promoter bids for Big Fight – J. J. Nanco Enters Field of Prospective Holders of battle between Dempsey and Wills – Kearns replied to the newspaper interview that he didn’t take Nanco, of Kingston Jamaica seriously, suggesting that he, Nanco, couldn’t come close to the guarantee he wanted. Kearns stated: “I did not take the letter seriously. I’ll wire him that the match is excepted to draw between a million and a million and a half dollars and let him use his imagination on what terms I will want for the champ.”

August 27th, 1922 – Jack Dempsey May Box Jack Johnson for $500,000 Purse in Mexico, Is Report – Kearns states he is willing to meet with Jack Johnson. Johnson says: “I weigh 222 pounds, only eight pounds overweight, give me three weeks and I will meet any man on earth. I am a better man today than I was ten years ago, much stronger and a harder hitter.” This is likely just more Kearns smoke.

August 31st, 1922 – Rickard’s Deal for Park’s use Pending – Parleys with Yankee’ Owners Held, but Stadium will not be Ready Until Spring – During the interview Rickard was asked if he would stage the Dempsey-Wills fight in the new Stadium and Rickard replied: “. . . that bout will not be held until next June 30th as far as [I am] concerned,” adding that “the event is too far distant to warrant discussion . . .”

September, 1922

September 7th, 1922 – Conditions Named for Dempsey-Wills – Chairman Muldoon of Boxing Commission Demands Promoter Post $250,000 Bond – Also Stipulates that 40,000 Admissions be Offered at $2 – Muldoon goes on to state that the top end seats (for Dempsey-Wills) must be $15 or less and that Rickard must accept all responsibility for a crowd of 100,000 – Kearns reacted to the announcement by stating that he is meeting with Rickard regarding a Dempsey-Brennan or Dempsey-Miske rematch. Rickard also added (again) that he had no intention of promoting a Dempsey-Wills fight until next June.

September 9th, 1922 – New Boxing Rule is Put in Force – Commission Decides Fighters Must Train near where they are to Compete – The new rule required ‘unknown’ fighters to publically train in the New York area for at least a two week before they will be licensed to fight in the State. The rule seems to have been in reaction to a series of recent mismatches; but no fights are identified. The article then goes on to state that Kearns tried to get Muldoon to sanction his Dempsey-Brennan fight (rematch) but Muldoon refused to sanction the fight.

September 13th, 1922 – Dempsey-Wills Go Still Lacks Home – O’Conner Confers with Kearns but Commission’s Ruling is Stumbling Block – O’Conner holds the ‘keys’ to the Polo Ground (as President of the Republic Athletic Club) and is conferring with Kearns – the Commission ruling, being mentioned goes back four days to Muldoon insistence on controlling ticket prices. Both Kearns and O’Conner agree that setting aside 40,000 seats at $3 apiece [SIC] is unrealistic and press Muldoon for a better deal.

Key Event: Battling Siki over Georges Carpentier KO 6/20

September 25th, 1922 – Offers Siki $100,000 to Meet Wills Here – Driscoll Would Stage Bout at Ebbets Field Oct 12 – Rickard to Act Today – Dave Driscoll, match-maker for the Ebbets-McKeever Company is trying to sign Siki to a Wills fight but the article also suggests that Rickard, by offering up the Garden or Veledrome as a possible venues, is trying to steal away the fight.

**For the next several weeks the Dempsey-Wills fight falls off the radar with everyone trying to build a Wills-Siki match. Several offers are made but nothing comes of it. Siki’s manager refers to his fighter as “a gorilla with monkey tricks,” demanding 1,000,000 Francs for the fight. (NY Times, September 26th, 1922)

September 26th, 1922 – Denies Rickard has Bought Fight Area – Director of Montreal stadium says it Has Not Been Sold to Promoter – The arena in question is the Mount Royal Arena and it is clarified that Rickard only leased the arena for a series of Monday night fights. Rickard in his clarification teases again stating that he is considering the venue for a Dempsey-Wills fight next year but first wants to see what the crowds are like. This seems disingenuous considering the venue holds a max crowd of 7,000.

October, 1922

October 10th, 1922 - Comment on Current Events in Sports – Boxing Section: This op-ed piece exhibits a startling change of attitude with the author calling for a Dempsey-Siki fight; the entire boxing section is dedicated to Battling Siki with Wills only getting cursory mention.

November, 1922

November 14th, 1922 – Dempsey and Wills May Clash June 30 – Rickard says his Experience at Toledo in 1919 Precludes Independence Day Date – after a month of silence Rickard once again announces a June 30th 1923 Dempsey-Wills fight but admits he hasn’t signed either fighter. The sub-headline regarding the fights date has Rickard stating: “That experience (Dempsey-Willard) has convinced me that the best summer date for an important boxing match is the Saturday preceding July 4th. [SIC]

November 22nd, 1922 – Rickard Confers with Yanks Owner – Discusses Prospects of Holding Dempsey-Wills Bout at New Ball park – Rickard claims: “Our conference had no definite results; we simply talked fights in general and discussed the possibility of holding important matches at the new Yankee Park.” Rickard would not commit to any discussion regarding Dempsey-Wills.

November 25th, 1922 - Dempsey may take $1,000,000 Offer – His manager Announces Conditional Agreement with Al woods for Three Bouts – First Match with Lewis – Kearns says Contest with Wrestler is Certain – Other opponents May be Wills and Beckett – The “Lewis” mentioned is wrestler Strangler Lewis, otherwise the headlines speak for themselves, Kearns is no longer thinking Wills.

December, 1922

December 12th, 1922 – Kearns and Archer to Discuss Bout – Will Meet in Los Angles to Arrange Match between Dempsey and Willard – Yea me too, can you believe Kearns pulled Willard out his ass again?

December 30th, 1922 – Dempsey Offered Match in England – London Promoter would Guarantee Champion 40,000 [English Pounds] for Bout in May – The British promoter is speaking of the Dempsey-Wills fight; Rickard’s reply, (no surprise) ”This is depended entirely upon the demands of the public.”

The year ends with no more talk regarding Harry Wills.

To be continued . . .

What a mess! And that's only up to 1922. If you keep going, this thread will be 100 pages long!

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Mr.MojoRisin', can you respond to this or show any proof you have that the FOUR articles relating to this Winner Take All offer are fabrications? And please, keep it civil. If you decline to respond, no problem.

I never called the winner takes all offer a fabrication.

What I did say was that Dempsey wasn't a racist. You said he was because he said the word "negro" multiple times in quotes by him from newspaper articles. I called those quotes fabrications because in Dempsey's own writings he never said negro. It's newspapermen more than likely paraphrasing. In there mind they call black people negros which was common. Colored was the polite term, negro was not.

[Lomadeaux]

I never called the winner takes all offer a fabrication.

What I did say was that Dempsey wasn't a racist. You said he was because he said the word "negro" multiple times in quotes by him from newspaper articles..

Is that dude still around? I don't get how anyone could engage him. He's a mentally ****ed up person. Stay away from that ****ing loser.

[travestyny]

I never called the winner takes all offer a fabrication.

What I did say was that Dempsey wasn't a racist. You said he was because he said the word "negro" multiple times in quotes by him from newspaper articles. I called those quotes fabrications because in Dempsey's own writings he never said negro. It's newspapermen more than likely paraphrasing. In there mind they call black people negros which was common. Colored was the polite term, negro was not.

Dude, that is a blatant lie. I have NEVER called Dempsey a racist.

You got into an argument with GhostofDempsey because YOU stated that the use of the term "negro" was racist, and you said that any quotation attributed to Dempsey in which he used the word "negro" was a fabrication.

The article that is posted in the OP you stated was a fabrication for "so many reasons," and you said that part of that reason is the language that was used. You also said it was full of a plethora of lies! Here is your statement about it:

Yes, the source is lying because it has so many easily disprovable statements in it that everyone would have been in an uproar over it. It's unexplainably dumb[.
I've never seen a source full of so many lies. The language the source claims Dempsey used does not match his other language anyway. Wasn't Dempsey. Where did you get this source anyway?

why would he blatantly lie about so much and expect to get away with it?

[travestyny]

Is that dude still around? I don't get how anyone could engage him. He's a mentally ****ed up person. Stay away from that ****ing loser.

Stay out of my threads you closet racist. You got embarrassed when you tried to prove I was Chollo and I called your bluff, then you got embarrassed for trying to claim Black Lives Matter is equivalent to the Ku Klux Klan, idiot. Still waiting for you to give a list of all the people who have died at the hands of Black Lives Matter so we can compare it to that Ku Klux Klan death toll.

This thread doesn't need you in it. You've had me on ignore ever since I exposed you, so there's no reason for you to discuss me, you ball-less bltch.

Thank you. Now back to keeping it classy, people.

[travestyny]

This is the same exact information that I posted from the law textbook that you claimed was a fabrication due to a plethora of lies and the language being used.

Do you now agree that the language used in this quotation does not have anything to do with its legitimacy?

“Since I won the championship in 1919 I wanted a bout with Wills. The powers that be in New York and the responsible promoters throughout the country do not want a heavyweight championship bout with a negro…

“…Yet they did not have courage enough to say that it was because Wills was a negro.”

“The commission did not want to antagonize the negro race."


For the record I have NEVER said the use of the word negro at this time means that someone is a racist. YOU said that.

At that time in American history the public was racist af. Colored was considered the non-racist polite term. If Dempsey had a real disdain for black folks he would have said 'negro'.

[Dempsey-Louis]

What a mess! And that's only up to 1922. If you keep going, this thread will be 100 pages long!

I think the New York Times liked Harry Wills and was championing his cause. One of the headlines I included was from January 30th, 1922 ?Harry Wills to Referee.

Announcing that a fighter was refereeing a fight is something usually noted by the media only when it is done by a champion or ex-champion; the Times was treating Wills like a local hero; like an uncrowned champion.

1922 was the year the fight should have happened; had it happened in '22 it would have been a brawl for the ages, one we would be talking about today.

I believe Dempsey's flip-flopping on the color-line issue was because it was Rickard who was calling the shots regarding whether Wills gets a shot or not. When Dempsey was 'on script' he would recite what Rickard scripted for him, and then when the press would catch Dempsey talking for himself, he would be all about how he will fight anyone, including Wills. Just as you would expect a great fighter to talk.

In the end it didn't matter what Dempsey thought, only what Kearns and Rickard thought. And they were trying (and would succeed) to stab each other in the back.

In '22 Wills got screwed because Rickard was scared to promote the fight (for several reasons) and Kearns wanted to promote his own fight (out west) where he could get Dempsey away from Rickard (New York).

Note how Boston and New Jersey both warned, even before being asked, that they would not licence a 'mixed match."

There was serious resistance to the fight; only New York was on board for the fight (for the reasons I mentioned earlier; Tammany Hall and Jimmy Walker).

I suspect that Rickard could have promoted the fight in New York but he was still scared of it.

As soon as Dempsey lost the title, Rickard did a 180 on the fight and was out and about calling for a Dempsey-Wills fight in New York, in '27. The only thing was that Sharkey took Wills apart and Sharkey, not Wills got the Dempsey fight in Yankee Stadium.

[travestyny]

I think the New York Times liked Harry Wills and was championing his cause. One of the headlines I included was from January 30th, 1922 ?Harry Wills to Referee.

Announcing that a fighter was refereeing a fight is something usually noted by the media only when it is done by a champion or ex-champion; the Times was treating Wills like a local hero; like an uncrowned champion.

1922 was the year the fight should have happened; had it happened in '22 it would have been a brawl for the ages, one we would be talking about today.

I believe Dempsey's flip-flopping on the color-line issue was because it was Rickard who was calling the shots regarding whether Wills gets a shot or not. When Dempsey was 'on script' he would recite what Rickard scripted for him, and then when the press would catch Dempsey talking for himself, he would be all about how he will fight anyone, including Wills. Just as you would expect a great fighter to talk.

In the end it didn't matter what Dempsey thought, only what Kearns and Rickard thought. And they were trying (and would succeed) to stab each other in the back.

In '22 Wills got screwed because Rickard was scared to promote the fight (for several reasons) and Kearns wanted to promote his own fight (out west) where he could get Dempsey away from Rickard (New York).

Note how Boston and New Jersey both warned, even before being asked, that they would not licence a 'mixed match."

There was serious resistance to the fight; only New York was on board for the fight (for the reasons I mentioned earlier; Tammany Hall and Jimmy Walker).

I suspect that Rickard could have promoted the fight in New York but he was still scared of it.

As soon as Dempsey lost the title, Rickard did a 180 on the fight and was out and about calling for a Dempsey-Wills fight in New York, in '27. The only thing was that Sharkey took Wills apart and Sharkey, not Wills got the Dempsey fight in Yankee Stadium.

I think that New York in general did seem to champion Wills quite a bit. Remember the incident that you mentioned in Madison Square Garden, which I've also read about, where they allowed Wills to be introduced and escorted to his back row seat by walking down to the front row past Dempsey, which caused the crowd to cheer him and eventually boo Dempsey. New York was definitely behind him!

And why not? I don't blame them for that as long as they are presenting the facts and not giving things spin. And I also agree with everything you've said.

But the issue that it seems no one wants to address is the contract that Dempsey signed and broke. To me, that stands out as a definitive time where one can say Dempsey ducked Wills. It may be true that Dempsey would have beaten Wills at this time, or it may not. That's why the fight. But it is clear to me that breaking that contract, especially when the promoter goes so far as to get an injunction, the courts state the contract was valid, and the promoter also gives proof of the money being present.....for Dempsey to break that contract after stating he wanted Wills and only Wills since 1919....that is a blatant duck. I'm sorry. There is no way around it.

However, this thread was not meant to be a comprehensive discussion about the Wills affair. The purpose was only about whether the information in the "Winner Take All" article was a fabrication by the New York Times, and whether the winner take all offer itself was legit.

After I read more articles on it, I found that there is certainly great proof that it was not legit, and I could have saved myself the trouble of discussing it had I read up more, but I still would have presented the info here to discuss anyway, so no biggie.


I am not, however, against talking about the comprehensive issue, though this thread wasn't meant to be that. As far as that goes, I reiterate, that Dempsey breaking that contract stands to me as the most clear evidence that, at least at that particular time, he did indeed duck Harry Wills. There is just no way around that.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

This is the same exact information that I posted from the law textbook that you claimed was a fabrication due to a plethora of lies and the language being used.

Do you now agree that the language used in this quotation does not have anything to do with its legitimacy?

“Since I won the championship in 1919 I wanted a bout with Wills. The powers that be in New York and the responsible promoters throughout the country do not want a heavyweight championship bout with a negro?br />
“…Yet they did not have courage enough to say that it was because Wills was a negro.?br />
“The commission did not want to antagonize the negro race."


For the record I have NEVER said the use of the word negro at this time means that someone is a racist. YOU said that.

I know exactly what you are referring to. There is no need to repost the same long walls of text.

I think that's where you're confused to is the context of my quote. I'm defending my stance that Dempsey was a racist. Not from a point of view that that stuff never happened.

It doesn't matter if you said negro was at that time racist. It isn't my opinion that that was the racist term. It's a fact. I was a history major for a while in college and 2 of my professors addressed this issue separately. Both made it very clear that the term colored was the term that people who were not racist used and the term negro was the term that those who didn't like black folks used. Now I want to make it very clear that there is no room for disagreement here. It's settled history. Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. That's the way things were back then.