Hagler was Absolutely the WEAKEST of the Big 4.

[The plunger man]

Teddy Atlas once said when asked if Mike Tyson had natural talent, "He didn't walk in the gym like that." Boxing is completely different from music. My family is very musically inclined and I taught myself multiple instruments from multiple families. Your argument is now baseless as you had to bring a topic which you know very little about into the equation.

A fighter with natural ability is someone like Rocky Graziano. As animals we fight on instinct. Instinctive fighting is aggressive, not out-boxing your opponent.

Have you ever set foot in a ring dago because you certianly have a limited knowledge of the fundamentals of boxing.....I would say no.....your mentioning rocky graziano in terms of talent..what happens when he faced off with Ray robsinson ? He got knocked out didn't he ...well why did he get knocked out ? Well he got knocked out by a fighter that was just technically better all round and just had more abilty....ohh but you say yes but if he had worked harder in the gym and dedicated himself more he could have beat Ray robinson I'm sure of it.....I say GTFOH and you have proved my point

[Anthony342]

You made it sound like Beethoven was born deaf. He wasn't. His hearing gradually deteriorated after he had composed the majority of his symphonies. I agree with some people being a natural at some things though. That natural talent can beat most opponents, but there still needs to be hard work to beat the best.

[The plunger man]

My point about their first 20 bouts was that Hagler fought who he fought because he turned pro with a 50 bout amateur career. He was tested around the 20th bout with an undefeated Seales. Leonard turned pro with national & inter-national experience with 3 times the bouts as Hagler had. Leonards people stayed with weak comp for his first 20 or so. That was a point I was making you must have "read over it"!
Why do make light of Antuofermo Hamsho and Monroe? These guys were tough fights for anyone, Leonard never fought these types of individuals. Just because skill levels aren't as high as upper tier opponents those men were tough and game as hell and in Antuofermo case one of the toughest fighters ever.
I pick Hagler over Ray because I think his style can be successful against Leonard. When they fought Hagler was clearly a step slower and an aged fighter. It is what it is and neither man was prime and that situation favored Leonards methods.
As to size Leonard could have fought at 154 or 160 earlier than he did. At 5'10" and a body type that could hold those weights he would have been stronger than the 147 Leonard but Hagler was there!

Ray

U can't have it both ways Ray ....Ray was also guided to become a future champion so he had to have his career the right way...20 fights is 20 fights whether it's hagler or leonard so if your gonna throw stones at Ray then do it with hagler as well...secondly Ray boxed randy shields,floyd mayweather snr and Marcos Geraldo in his 22nd fight and Geraldo went on to face marvin hagler and took his the full distance....i see nothing in vito antuerfermo except a come forward and take loads of punches with his face , he also lacked any kind of punching power for a world class middlweight....let me ask you a question Ray...ali,robinson,louis,duran,leonard,mayweather, holmes,lewis,chavez never lost or Drew to a fringe contender like hagler did ...why is that ? ... As I have always said leonard was a btter all round boxer than hagler...his record shows, he moved up in weight, he beat 4 of the greates fighters if the last 50 years..and he came back to beat hagler at haglers weight after having one fight in 5 years....leonard would have beaten hagler if he never suffered an eye injury in 1982 but he did and we was robbed of that fight...that's my view and most people rate leonard higher than hagler in all time p4p rankings

[The plunger man]

You made it sound like Beethoven was born deaf. He wasn't. His hearing gradually deteriorated after he had composed the majority of his symphonies. I agree with some people being a natural at some things though. That natural talent can beat most opponents, but there still needs to be hard work to beat the best.

Of course anthony ...I never said you didn't have to train or dedicate yourself...I just said some fighters are just more naturally gifted...and that's God gifted ....dago tried to make into some sort of competition....and that's my view on it

[PivotandRoll]

Now I see why you have zero rep frampton man , now if you don't know that some fighters are born with a natural talent other fighters just don't have , speed , footwork and are just meant to wear gloves .then a idiot will never know...you heard that saying f@ckstic haven't you...punchers are born not made...what's does that tell you !it means natural, Ray robinson was gifted,ali,leonard,duran,Jones,mayweather so again read dummy and understand between a fighter that had to train everyday and gradually work to where he got to a fighter that seemed a natural as soon as he got in the ring....twat

Did I argue anything you just said moron or did i make fun of you for saying god gifted? Wow, and you actually moronic enough to suggest it's me who doesn't understand. I get it so fast fighters are talented......awesome boxing fan bro, you know so much about the sport XD

[HandsofIron]

Duran, Hearns and Leonard all had to jump multiple weight classes to fight this coward. All put on great showings! Why Hagler is even mentioned amongst these multi-division warriors baffles the hell out of me.

Hagler's legacy is camping out at Middleweight waiting for small welters to pounce on.

Yeah I agree, Wilfred Benitez is better than him and he gets left out, it boggles the mind.

From the Fab4Kings era, I'd rank them like this:

1. Duran
2. Leonard
3. Hearns
4. Benitez
5. Hagler

Edit - Hagler's no coward, he's an ATG just not as good as the others I listed.

[The plunger man]

Did I argue anything you just said moron or did i make fun of you for saying god gifted? Wow, and you actually moronic enough to suggest it's me who doesn't understand. I get it so fast fighters are talented......awesome boxing fan bro, you know so much about the sport XD

You call me an idiot for start when we haven't even spoken before ....that's a start isn't it ...I don't mind someone having a different opinion and saying I'm wrong but when you throw that at me I will throw something back right at you .

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Excuse me ? How the hell do you know...firstly I grew up with music secondly I produce electronic music and I dj and I also play the synthesisers ......you obnoxious prick ...secondly talent is talent whether it's sport, music,art or even writing , based on your criteria every club fighter if he works hard will attain to be a world champion and become an ATG ....what bollocks , some fighters have more talent and are more gifted to go further in that sport ....I know plenty of footballers who have gone on to be proffesional but they can't or never will control a football with there feet a maradona or pele....some athletes are just naturals and that is a God given talent....and I don't mean God give it to them as a present....ali,robsinson,leonard,Jones and mayweather all have a natural gift that other fighters will never possess no matter how much time or dedication they put in the gym....tiger woods was a natural and had special talent...we can on and on if you want lol

Just because you DJ doesn't mean you know shlt about music. I know plenty of DJ's that can work wonders with tables but on a real instrument forget about it. Do your research. Robinson was shlt when he was a young fighter. "He didn't look like much of a fighter" as said by Gainsford. You just think that every ATG had natural talent. You don't know anything about boxing and are pitifully attempting to make up reasons for why you got whooped in the gym.

In relation to what I said about Rocky Graziano is he walked into the gym a good fighter. He was definitely one of the hardest hitting fighters p4p of all time. You must not be able to comprehend what I'm saying because you keep saying that I think any ole fighter could win a title. It's all about mental capacity and not the physical. You believe too much about what you hear, you think that punching power can't be increased and that a fighter is born with a world class one punch knockout power. PROOF you dksab. I do believe however that certain fighters have an inclination towards a specific area whether it be speed, power, etc. Ray Robinson was great in every category and WORKED for it. Fighters are taught greatness and enable that greatness with how they use it. Nobody is great as soon as they put on gloves. Pele wasn't the greatest soccer player as soon as he touched a soccer ball. It takes time to develop skills. Some people just learn a lot faster than others. Others just never learn. That is what distinguishes these club fighters from ATG's. They don't adapt neurologically and mentally to boxing as fast.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

U can't have it both ways Ray ....Ray was also guided to become a future champion so he had to have his career the right way...20 fights is 20 fights whether it's hagler or leonard so if your gonna throw stones at Ray then do it with hagler as well...secondly Ray boxed randy shields,floyd mayweather snr and Marcos Geraldo in his 22nd fight and Geraldo went on to face marvin hagler and took his the full distance....i see nothing in vito antuerfermo except a come forward and take loads of punches with his face , he also lacked any kind of punching power for a world class middlweight....let me ask you a question Ray...ali,robinson,louis,duran,leonard,mayweather, holmes,lewis,chavez never lost or Drew to a fringe contender like hagler did ...why is that ? ... As I have always said leonard was a btter all round boxer than hagler...his record shows, he moved up in weight, he beat 4 of the greates fighters if the last 50 years..and he came back to beat hagler at haglers weight after having one fight in 5 years....leonard would have beaten hagler if he never suffered an eye injury in 1982 but he did and we was robbed of that fight...that's my view and most people rate leonard higher than hagler in all time p4p rankings

That fallacy in your logic is when you think that Hagler had it equal to any of the mentioned fighters. He was always hated. Just look at the scores for the Antuofermo fight, Duran fight (nowhere near as close as the judges said), and Bobby Watts I. He was robbed 2 almost 3 times.

[The plunger man]

Just because you DJ doesn't mean you know shlt about music. I know plenty of DJ's that can work wonders with tables but on a real instrument forget about it. Do your research. Robinson was shlt when he was a young fighter. "He didn't look like much of a fighter" as said by Gainsford. You just think that every ATG had natural talent. You don't know anything about boxing and are pitifully attempting to make up reasons for why you got whooped in the gym.

In relation to what I said about Rocky Graziano is he walked into the gym a good fighter. He was definitely one of the hardest hitting fighters p4p of all time. You must not be able to comprehend what I'm saying because you keep saying that I think any ole fighter could win a title. It's all about mental capacity and not the physical. You believe too much about what you hear, you think that punching power can't be increased and that a fighter is born with a world class one punch knockout power. PROOF you dksab. I do believe however that certain fighters have an inclination towards a specific area whether it be speed, power, etc. Ray Robinson was great in every category and WORKED for it. Fighters are taught greatness and enable that greatness with how they use it. Nobody is great as soon as they put on gloves. Pele wasn't the greatest soccer player as soon as he touched a soccer ball. It takes time to develop skills. Some people just learn a lot faster than others. Others just never learn. That is what distinguishes these club fighters from ATG's. They don't adapt neurologically and mentally to boxing as fast.

I never got whooped in the gym mongo lol .. again your wrong dago....some athletes never learn you just said am I right ? But you just said if you dedicate and train really hard that you can learn and make it to the top ...make up your mind......now don't make this into some sort of dedication and capacity argument....Leonard had more natural ability in the ring than 99 percent of the fighters out there...his natural ability was superior to haglers , speed, movement , timing and determination, killer instinct ... Leonard had natural talent...that's why Leonard ranks in the top 3 of the most gifted fighters of the last 40 years....not hagler......I know your type your the guy from outside the ring and that's about it......now if your trying to make it sound that I never said you didn't need to harness your ability or dedicate your time and bring the best out of it then your a bigger dummy that I thought .....99 percent of fighters could train 10 years in a gym and never possess the kind of skill Leonard had ...that's a natural talent for the sport and if you will god given...end of subject dago...get back to writing music