Hagler was Absolutely the WEAKEST of the Big 4.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Are you a dummy or something ? For a start your saying benvenuti was in one weight dvsion and yet he won world titles at both weight classes lol....u can't pick and choose to suit you.......were talking about Torres who competed as middlweight and also won a world title at lightheavyweight....he also started his career at a later stage than hagler and he still moved up to lightheavyweight .....marvin from the age of 18 from till he was 32 years when he quit never weighed more than 163 pounds ....so if you think that's the same as weighing 159 and ending your career at 175 then there's something wrong with your brain....this has to do with the advantage a naturally bigger boxer will have over his smaller opponents .....you can't say they never went up in weights if they did....hagler didn't and that my point....benvenuti takes the biscuit .The man won a world title in two weight class for f@ck sake .....where's haglers light middlweight world title lol....as I said the only one I have seen which is a most identical to haglers is monzon but the first 20 or so bouts there's no weight recorded so he could have been lighter but We will never know....you go get in the ring with a boxer who is naturally bigger that you and holds all the physical advantages and let see how you get on...I boxed guy who were bigger than me by 5 kilos and it was a killer so don't talk to me about weights....Hagler litterally stayed in his own weight class and made his name calling up smaller fighters knowing there was a guy above him who called him out on numerous occasions but he didn't want to know....hagler knew the money was in the Durans , hearns and Leonard's and wanted no part of any light heavyweight....that's a bully in my eyes....Leonard and Duran both had no catch weights in facing hagler and both faced him at his natural weight.....Duran showed hagler could be beaten and Leonard beat him....I respect a fighter far more such as Duran or Leonard who has gone up through the weights and not only tested the weights but also won at them then a boxer who camps out in one division feeds his legacy with smaller all time great fighters.......that's why he is only lowly ranked in the p4p top 20 at best...where Leonard and Duran are top 10 ....by the look of your two favourite fighters hagler and Marciano sounds like your from Brockton or somewhere like it so ur probably biased ...a smaller inactive fighter rose to haglers prime weight after having 1 fight in 5 years and your saying that the same achievement as defending your title against the caveman lees or obelmejias of this world.....I never said you won't find any I said u will find very few like hagler who litterally stayed in one weight class all his career and 3 pounds is a lot different than 10lbs...I never said hagler was not a great fighters I just consider the likes of Duran,Leonard,walker,greb,Armstrong,Robinson,argue llo who competed and won at a higher weight better on the p4p list.....hagler resume is lacking in that respect and that's always been the case

I agree with you when it comes to p4p that fighters who move up in weight are greater than those who didn't. My original post was in response to the op saying that Hagler was the weakest of the Big 4. He clearly was not because he knocked out 1 of them beat another convincingly and fought a Split Decision with another. Middleweight was his obvious normal weight because he fought there in the amateurs too. If he probably couldn't even have made light middleweight and he would have been too small at light heavyweight. Imaginge him going up against Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammad, and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad. He would have been dwarfed. Also, some fighters don't consider the light/supers real divisons. B-Hop has said that Super Middleweight is just a division for true light heavyweights in hiding. Overall, in that era it would have been very ****** for Hagler to move up. It would be like Kovalev moving up to Heavyweight.

[The plunger man]

I agree with you when it comes to p4p that fighters who move up in weight are greater than those who didn't. My original post was in response to the op saying that Hagler was the weakest of the Big 4. He clearly was not because he knocked out 1 of them beat another convincingly and fought a Split Decision with another. Middleweight was his obvious normal weight because he fought there in the amateurs too. If he probably couldn't even have made light middleweight and he would have been too small at light heavyweight. Imaginge him going up against Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammad, and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad. He would have been dwarfed. Also, some fighters don't consider the light/supers real divisons. B-Hop has said that Super Middleweight is just a division for true light heavyweights in hiding. Overall, in that era it would have been very ****** for Hagler to move up. It would be like Kovalev moving up to Heavyweight.

Look mate arguing over preferences of what we consider are tangibles for greatness is petty and also can't be proven..I'm sure down the line we will have agreements and disagreements ...it's a forum..I'm a traditional fan of boxing and was raised in the fabulous 4 era and have been a rabid fan of it since....to be honest I consider boxing a joke with all the catchweights and cherry picking going on now.....non of them we talked about were cherry pickers like today and they all deserve praise for being champions and the best of there era.....I would say in the list of the 4 ?. in order would be 1 Leonard 2 Duran 3 hagler 4 hearns....the reason why say that is because Leonard had the better record regarding the fights between the top 4 and his boxing ability and skill. Duran because of what he did through the weights..hagler being so dominant and beating Duran and hearns...hearns has to be 4 because he was hurt or stopped 2 many times in his career by fighters who were way below him and lost both of his most defining fights.....I'm off to the gym now....im sure we're discuss other things soon ...Leonard faced lalonde 6ft 2 and he was only 5'10 ..Torres was the same m8 at only 5ft 10 ..braxton was only 5ft 7 would you believe .....I understand it was not a clever move....but when you think about Duran it was not clever move really fancy hagler but he did and you have to give that so much respect..I do ....good weekend

[Lemus]

Everyone isn't suited to weight-jumping and it shouldn't be seen as a drawback per se—which seems to be the case nowadays.

Sometimes I wonder how Hagler's reputation would have been affected if he had dismissed them altogether, or at least waited until they had proved their mettle against a number of Top 10-rated middleweights.

[joseph5620]

I don't care about betting odds, the fact is, the majority of sports writers and people in boxing expected Hearns to win and he did (in impressive fashion). And which ever way you put it, even if hearns managed to sc**** by being the guy at 154, it still isn't as impressive as Leonard being the guy at 147 AND 160 or Hagler with his long reign as middleweight champ or Durans' decade long turn at 135, which is what I was getting at in my original post before you morphed it into a tommy hearns orgy.

You can try to manipulate the circumstances as much as you want but Hearns victory over Duran was considered impressive then and it didn't take "years" for people to realize it. Hearns was not a "huge favorite" either.


You could have made your point without fabricating the circumstances of the fight. But since you decided to go that route you shouldn't get offended when you're called out on it.

[soul_survivor]

You can try to manipulate the circumstances as much as you want but Hearns victory over Duran was considered impressive then and it didn't take "years" for people to realize it. Hearns was not a "huge favorite" either.


You could have made your point without fabricating the circumstances of the fight. But since you decided to go that route you shouldn't get offended when you're called out on it.

I've never once said hearns win over Duran was bad but to make out like it was some ATG win is ridiculous, although the win has aged better because of Duran's title win at 160.

Having said that, you're the one who was offended by a slight part of my post which was about Hearns, in a thread which is actually about Hagler. You seem to be a massive fan boy, which is ok but don't try and argue boxing with me if you don't know **** about it.

Trying to claim Hearns win at 154 was akin to Holmes as heavyweight champion [IMG]//media.*****.com/media/zainSSjEMwOHe/*****.gif[/IMG]

[joseph5620]

I've never once said hearns win over Duran was bad but to make out like it was some ATG win is ridiculous, although the win has aged better because of Duran's title win at 160.

Having said that, you're the one who was offended by a slight part of my post which was about Hearns, in a thread which is actually about Hagler. You seem to be a massive fan boy, which is ok but don't try and argue boxing with me if you don't know **** about it.

Trying to claim Hearns win at 154 was akin to Holmes as heavyweight champion [IMG]//media.*****.com/media/zainSSjEMwOHe/*****.gif[/IMG]

I never said that so you should at least get your facts straight with my statements since you can't seem to do that in regards to Hearns-Duran.



The argument wasn't whether it was an all time great win. I pointed out your statement that the fight wasn't seen as impressive until years later. You obviously just made that up to make your point because that's 100 percent false. It's not the first time you tried to tak about something you know absolutely nothing about. You have made similar ******, clueless, comments regarding Pernell Whitaker.

[BM dnobagaV]

Did Hagler ever fight another natural MW that eventually went up in weight?

[Scott9945]

Did Hagler ever fight another natural MW that eventually went up in weight?

I can't imagine why this matters, but Sibson, Obelmejias, and Hearns all fought for titles in higher weight classes.

[BoxVillaKO]

Haven't read this entire thread so pardon if i repeat anything previously posted.

1- Many don't give Hagler credit for fighting in pretty deep division in the 1970's and early 1980's. There were many good Philly middleweights as Briscoe who once fought Monzon to a draw,

2-Hagler would have had many more title defenses if guys like Hugo Corro didn't duck him as Hagler had openly called him out when Corro was champion. Hagler certainly had as much of a case as Corro to have fought Rodrigo Valdez for the title back in 1978. I thought as many that Hagler did beat Vito for the title back in 1979 which would have give him many extra title defenses.

3-As for the number of weight divisions he could have been champion??? He definitely with the modern alphabet soup system could have been champ in three divisions. Hagler was a small middleweight and could have won titles between 154-168 pounds. The SMW division didn't exist until the mid 1980's and the bigger money fights were in his division. Remember, there were many life long heavyweight and middleweight champions as those historically along with the welterweight division have been the classy divisions of the sport.

If Hagler was a bully who beat up on smaller guys what does that make B-Hop? Taking nothing away from Hopkins, but his biggest wins in the MW division were DLH (guy who won his first title at 130) and Trinidad (blown up middleweight). In addition, Hopkins was much bigger than Hagler who was like four inches shorter. Hopkins did go up to LHW, but many still consider Hopkins among the greatest MW champions of all-time.

4- In 67 professional bouts the man was never knocked out. I don't care if you fight tomato cans, but to fight early every month then get in the ring with guys who had killer power as Roldan, Hearns, and Mugabi and remain standing demonstrates excellent conditioning and mental strength.

5-The man was one of the greatest examples of ambidextrous boxing ability. Hagler out-boxed and knocked out opponents with either hand. This is why many guys ducked him since he wasn't a one-dimensional southpaw. All the big four were special fighters, but to totally dismiss Hagler is unfair to his boxing achievement. Hagler along with Greb, Robinson, and Monzon belongs among the greatest fighters of the middleweight division.

[Panamaniac]

do you know how dedicated you have to be to fight in the same weight class for your whole career and make weight every time?

Good point. It took a lot of discipline for Hagler to fight at middleweight for an entire career. By contrast, Duran ballooned so much between fights, it became easier to move up in weight class than struggle to make the lower weight.