Made a list of the 25 greatest fighters of the last 25 years...how bad is it?

[billeau2]

Judah gave Mayweather a problem because that's the first time he'd fought someone faster than him in the ring and he had to make adjustments.

As soon as he adjusted it was one of the easiest fights of his career.

its wonderful you hold that opinion. By the time Judah fought Mayweather he was a shell of the guy who stepped into the ring to fight Zoo. he still managed to give mayweather problems for almost half the fight.

One can only imagine that the version of Judah that fought at his best would do at least a degree better against Mayweather.

[joseph5620]

judah did not have any victory over a top fighter, but his skills were observable and he fought well enough against the comp he faced to establish his skill level. There are other fighters who one could put in this category such as Tyson.

My point is not to say Judah was a great fighter, its just to distinguish his career as a whole as a point of comparison, versus when he was obviously very skilled. Its also to establish that the version of Judah that Zoo fought was regarded as a top level fighter in this regard...At the time of this fight Judah was cited as being at this level, that much is a fact.

Now, what is debatable is whether Zoo just happened to luck out and expose a weak opponent. This is a matter of opinion and I guess we just disagree on this point. certainly if we took fighters like Left Hook Lacy we can see that fighters appearing as very good can be exposed.

But I am not saying Judah is on Mayweather's level, I am saying that when Judah was at his best he was physically capable of being a challenging fight for a fighter of Mayweather's calabre because of his physical gifts. I also think that the fact that a shell of Judah giving Mayweather some problems is indicative of this point. The context of this was Zoo's ability and his competition.

Exactly. Looking good against C level opposition is not a gauge to how great a fighter is. In Judah's case it's quite obvious. His weaknesses had not yet been exposed because he had not yet faced an opponent capable of exposing them.

Just because Judah was hyped as "Whitaker with power" doesn't mean it was true and it obviously wasn't. It was silly.

If this is how you determine great skill, then Broner and Berto are in the same catagory like Dan said. As far as him being "shell" when he fought Mayweather, that's ridiculous. He was no different from what he had been previously. He was never on Mayweather's level at any point in his career.

[billeau2]

Again i don't wanna sound like Rockin here but people who have never trained really have very little comprehension of how GOOD these guys are at fighting.

case in point: Ive sparred a couple of low level pros, guys with like 5-10 pro fights, some with losing records, who would be referred to as "bums" on here.

These guys were strong as hell, hit HARD and were ridiculously tough. I'm no great fighter but I had 20 am fights and have decent skills. sparring these guys was fcuking hard. They are tough as nails. And they know where they are in the ring. Even to say guys at these level have "no skills" is wrong...so saying a guy like judah has no skills or little skills is just plain ******ed.

imagine what it would be like at Judah's level... the levels of speed, power and ring savvy...are off the charts...

I've even seen guys on here (NSB obviously) being serious trying to claim they would last a couple rounds with a guy like Roman Gonzalez...lmfao..you wouldnt even last a couple rounds with me

Sure I would last a couple of rounds with you baby...I would Inouke your azz, as soon as the bell rang, i would start this insane bicycle kick, and then I would get one of them furniture dollies, the board with four wheels! as soon as you got near I would paddle away, when I got to the other side I would kick off the ropes. Just as you closed the gap I would spit the mouthpiece out...

[billeau2]

Exactly. Looking good against C level opposition is not a gauge to how great a fighter is. In Judah's case it's quite obvious. His weaknesses had not yet been exposed because he had not yet faced an opponent capable of exposing them.

Just because Judah was hyped as "Whitaker with power" doesn't mean it was true and it obviously wasn't. It was silly.

If this is how you determine great skill, then Broner and Berto are in the same catagory like Dan said. As far as him being "shell" when he fought Mayweather, that's ridiculous. He was no different from what he had been previously. He was never on Mayweather's level at any point in his career.

Level of opposition is only one of several ways to determine skill level, not a final say. he obviously was better than a guy who snuck by on almost half his victories (Bronner). No he was not on Mayweathers level career wise but at his best he would not be outclassed, he had too many gifts. I think Mayweather beats him but its a tougher fight than a guy like Guererro.

Yes, you are correct that he was hyped, but its not a black and white issue because he did have a lot of talent and ability. I don't even like Judah much as a fighter, but recognize that he had talent coming up and that certainly by the time he fought Mayweather he was not nearly on the same level as when he was coming up to fight Zoo.

[IronDanHamza]

I never said outstanding fighter are you laughing at yourself? I explained it to you and will do so one more time because you are asking me questions I already answered about a matter of disagreement and not of fact.

Judah at the time when he fought Zoo did have outstanding physical skills. You seem to think this was a matter of his handspeed...ok. People at that time saw Judah as having power, great punching technique, speed and ring smarts. He was walking through the division, but more important he was showing technical excellence. The problems with Judah had not emerged yet and while I would never compare him to mayweather over the length of a career, at his best I believe he would not be outclassed by mayweather...You seem to think the problems a shell of Judah gave Mayweather are not relevant, I think they were.... so be it, different opinions.

Maybe we have differnt ideas about "outclassed" but to me "outclassed and exposed" is Jeff Lacey getting beat by Calzighe....two different fighters at totally different levels. A prime Judah I believe would be a handful for floyd and floyd did not, imo outclass Judah in their fight. Again its a matter of opinion but look at Left hook lacy, look at Judah after their respective fights...thats my basis for comparison.

Ok lets talk about Bronner since this is new ground. Judah breeezed through his comp, Bronner got his hand raised at least three times when he could have lost the fight. Judah was fighting in one of the more competative divisions when he was coming up, Bronner does not even have a division and tries to fight below his weight. So there is very little basis for comparison really.

When Bronner fought Madianna, who we can say for the sake of argument is equivalent to jab stepping up to Zoo, Bronner had already shown he was not a dominant fighter. Zab had not been touched yet and dominated up until his fight with Zoo.

Having elite level skills does not always make an elite fighter. Dawson is another example of this.

Yes you did say he was a outstanding fighter go and read back the post I quoted.

I don't care what "people said". "People said" Jeff Lacy was the next Mike Tyson. "People said" the world was flat.

Zab Judah has never had elite skills. Never, ever, ever. He's never had "ring smarts".

Judah "breezed through" the literal bums he fought before Tszyu (outside of Witter) then the same Judah got a gift against Corley a few fights later and then lost to Cory Spinks.

Judah was a "shell" in 2006? Ok. Like I said his speed was an issue for a few rounds, after that it was a one sided beat down.

Yes Chad Dawson, good example. Neither have elite skills.

Basically, Judah and Mayweather aren't even close to comparable. Less so than Tszyu and Mayweather. Who are also different levels of fighters.

[IronDanHamza]

its wonderful you hold that opinion. By the time Judah fought Mayweather he was a shell of the guy who stepped into the ring to fight Zoo. he still managed to give mayweather problems for almost half the fight.

One can only imagine that the version of Judah that fought at his best would do at least a degree better against Mayweather.

Judah was no better in 2001 than he was in 2006.

No version of Judah wins more than 4 rounds against Mayweather and that is pushing it.

[sonnyboyx2]

I had wanted him on the list, but felt as though most of his best wins were in the 80s. He's one of my all time favorites, and wouldn't have a problem with people having him on their lists.

Tyson was Heavyweight Champion of the World LOL

Not one single fighter on your list including Floyd Mayweather, generated excitement in the sport like Mike Tyson.. The vast majority on your list were nothing but alphabet champions. your 1-25 is way off the mark..

Nigel Benn
Chris Eubank
Gerald McClellan
Julian Jackson
Naseem Hamed
Paul Williams
Antonio Margarito
Rid**** Bowe
Vinny Pazienza
Arturo Gatti
Azumah Nelson
Johnny Tapia
Paulie Ayala

To name but a few...

[joseph5620]

Level of opposition is only one of several ways to determine skill level, not a final say. he obviously was better than a guy who snuck by on almost half his victories (Bronner). No he was not on Mayweathers level career wise but at his best he would not be outclassed, he had too many gifts. I think Mayweather beats him but its a tougher fight than a guy like Guererro.

Yes, you are correct that he was hyped, but its not a black and white issue because he did have a lot of talent and ability. I don't even like Judah much as a fighter, but recognize that he had talent coming up and that certainly by the time he fought Mayweather he was not nearly on the same level as when he was coming up to fight Zoo.

It's also the most meaningful and valid way to determine a skill level. If a fighter looks good against sub par opposition but mediocre or terrible against A level competition that tells you everything you need to know when determining their skill level.


Excatly what level was he on when he fought Tszyu other than his hype? He hadn't fought or beaten anybody worth mentioning. If anything he was more accomplished and proven as a fighter when he fought Mayweather opposed to when he fought Tszyu.

[The Old LefHook]

I never considered Judah a highly skilled elite fighter. He had the gift of fast-twitch fibers. That is what he used, not a bag of tradtional skills. His skill level is what I would call reasonable for a professional. Speed, rather than true defensive skills usually kept him out of trouble. Besides that fault, he did not have the tough mentality needed for a great champion. His mentality was held together by paper clips.

[Dodger07]

Tyson was Heavyweight Champion of the World LOL

Not one single fighter on your list including Floyd Mayweather, generated excitement in the sport like Mike Tyson.. The vast majority on your list were nothing but alphabet champions. your 1-25 is way off the mark..

Nigel Benn
Chris Eubank
Gerald McClellan
Julian Jackson
Naseem Hamed
Paul Williams
Antonio Margarito
Rid**** Bowe
Vinny Pazienza
Arturo Gatti
Azumah Nelson
Johnny Tapia
Paulie Ayala

To name but a few...

Just because Tyson generated excitement during the last 25 years, doesn't mean he was still a great fighter during that time period. He lost to buster Douglas, and by the time he got out of prison he was reduced to being a puncher with no head movement or speed, things he was known for having in his prime. He then got dominated by the other great fighters of his era, holyfield twice and Lewis. Not to mention his other ko losses, although they happened when he was completely shot.

As far as the fighters that you listed, do you believe they all belong on the top 25 list? Or which of those would you put, and which names from my list are off the mark?