Made a list of the 25 greatest fighters of the last 25 years...how bad is it?

[billeau2]

They are nowhere near the same level. Unless you want to leave out attributes like mental toughness, ring intelligence, defense, chin, strength, stamina and endurance, ability to adapt and adjust. That's a lot to ignore.

Two totally different fighters.

Over the long haul yes without question but again, we are talking about the version of Judah that fought Zoo.

It is as probable that the fight with Zoo precipitated a decline in Judah, because he fought so differently after that fight. It is possible that he was always an accident waiting to happen but I question this because prior to fighting Zoo he did not show a lack of skills, poor defense, vis a vis mental toughness, that would later define him as a fighter. And the Zoo fight was short, it didn't last long enough to expose him. it was not like Pavlik or lacy getting dismantled entirely, and showing a lack of skills people thought they had.

On the contrary with Judah it was more like with Jones in that when he lost his fight it happened to fast to show any great latent deficiencies. Like Jones after the fight with Zoo suddenly Judah started to show problems and got beat by guys (like baldimore) who were not thought to be on his level before the fight.

my point is: while Judah over the course of a career was no where near Floyd, there was a time when he was a fighter with outstanding skills that were as sharp as any great fighter and put him in the same general stratosphere because of what he could do in the ring....he changed after the flash KO and was not really the same afterwards. This change was probably psychological.

This all goes back to the fact that the version of Judah that fought Zoo was an outstanding fighter with elite skills and while certainly not as great as Floyd career wise, at his apex he would have been competative with A fighter of floyd's calibre in the ring, which is coincidentally when he fought Zoo.

[joseph5620]

Over the long haul yes without question but again, we are talking about the version of Judah that fought Zoo.

It is as probable that the fight with Zoo precipitated a decline in Judah, because he fought so differently after that fight. It is possible that he was always an accident waiting to happen but I question this because prior to fighting Zoo he did not show a lack of skills, poor defense, vis a vis mental toughness, that would later define him as a fighter. And the Zoo fight was short, it didn't last long enough to expose him. it was not like Pavlik or lacy getting dismantled entirely, and showing a lack of skills people thought they had.

On the contrary with Judah it was more like with Jones in that when he lost his fight it happened to fast to show any great latent deficiencies. Like Jones after the fight with Zoo suddenly Judah started to show problems and got beat by guys (like baldimore) who were not thought to be on his level before the fight.

my point is: while Judah over the course of a career was no where near Floyd, there was a time when he was a fighter with outstanding skills that were as sharp as any great fighter and put him in the same general stratosphere because of what he could do in the ring....he changed after the flash KO and was not really the same afterwards. This change was probably psychological.

This all goes back to the fact that the version of Judah that fought Zoo was an outstanding fighter with elite skills and while certainly not as great as Floyd career wise, at his apex he would have been competative with A fighter of floyd's calibre in the ring, which is coincidentally when he fought Zoo.

Who exactly did Judah beat prior to Tszyu that would put him anywhere near the level of Mayweather? He lost to Tszyu because he was tested by a top fighter and failed. That defines Judah. Nothing in his career before or after indicates anything other than that.

[IronDanHamza]

Over the long haul yes without question but again, we are talking about the version of Judah that fought Zoo.

It is as probable that the fight with Zoo precipitated a decline in Judah, because he fought so differently after that fight. It is possible that he was always an accident waiting to happen but I question this because prior to fighting Zoo he did not show a lack of skills, poor defense, vis a vis mental toughness, that would later define him as a fighter. And the Zoo fight was short, it didn't last long enough to expose him. it was not like Pavlik or lacy getting dismantled entirely, and showing a lack of skills people thought they had.

On the contrary with Judah it was more like with Jones in that when he lost his fight it happened to fast to show any great latent deficiencies. Like Jones after the fight with Zoo suddenly Judah started to show problems and got beat by guys (like baldimore) who were not thought to be on his level before the fight.

my point is: while Judah over the course of a career was no where near Floyd, there was a time when he was a fighter with outstanding skills that were as sharp as any great fighter and put him in the same general stratosphere because of what he could do in the ring....he changed after the flash KO and was not really the same afterwards. This change was probably psychological.

This all goes back to the fact that the version of Judah that fought Zoo was an outstanding fighter with elite skills and while certainly not as great as Floyd career wise, at his apex he would have been competative with A fighter of floyd's calibre in the ring, which is coincidentally when he fought Zoo.

Outstanding fighter with elite skills? Based on what?

Thar's like saying Adrien Broner was an outstanding fighter with elite skills until Maidana battered him.

Zab Judah has never shown elite skills. Never.

He has very little skill.

[IronDanHamza]

No...Zab has been fighting a while now, maybe not as a great, but Adrien Bronner has a ways to go before even being a legitimate gate keeper. Berto likewise.

We will have to agree to disagree. Judah has shown that he has skills his real problems are mental.

The version of Judah Floyd fought was lacking, Judah still presented a few problems for Mayweather, yeah after that Floyd did figure him out...Just as when Tyson fought Lewis at one point he hit Lewis with a shot and people stood up, but that version of Tyson could just be competitive enough to make it interesting for a round or so. In both cases it did not take a leap of faith to see that a better version of Judah/Tyson would have been competative in the ring.

When Tyson fought Lewis he was not technically a very old fighter, but it would be disingenius to say that the version of Tyson that Lewis fought was a legitimate representation of Tyson at his best, yes? Furthermore, when we look at ATG fighters one could say of Tyson that he was beat by most of the better guys he fought (Holyfield, Lewis) and consequently did not have an outstanding career, yes?

Yet if we took a short snap shot of Tyson at his best, a different picture emerges....some people still put Tyson as one of the most talented fighters yes?

Judah was similar in many respects. Like Tyson he never beat anyone that great prime...he never really went as far as people thought he would, yet, like Tyson he was a champion... he even self destructed a bit like Tyson, but nobody questions that Judah at his best, had the skills and raw talent of a great fighter. as much as we can say Tyson, at his best, is in a class with the great heavyweights, we can also say that Judah had enough weapons to be, at the very least, a challenge to a guy on Floyd's level....provided we take the best version of Judah.

Its misleading to confuse the obvious talent of a guy who made wrong choices and became marginal, but was at one point posioned for greener pastures, with guys who never were extraordinary. Its especially misleading regarding Zoo because the Judah that he fought was the absolute best version of Zab. But if you think the version of Judah that Zoo fought would be in a different class than Floyd, we can agree to disagree.

Judah gave Mayweather a problem because that's the first time he'd fought someone faster than him in the ring and he had to make adjustments.

As soon as he adjusted it was one of the easiest fights of his career.

[Suckmedry]

Outstanding fighter with elite skills? Based on what?

Thar's like saying Adrien Broner was an outstanding fighter with elite skills until Maidana battered him.

Zab Judah has never shown elite skills. Never.

He has very little skill.

i don't get how people on this site can say guys at judah's level have "little skills"

like wtf...you don't get to that level without a lot of skill.

[Suckmedry]

Again i don't wanna sound like Rockin here but people who have never trained really have very little comprehension of how GOOD these guys are at fighting.

case in point: Ive sparred a couple of low level pros, guys with like 5-10 pro fights, some with losing records, who would be referred to as "bums" on here.

These guys were strong as hell, hit HARD and were ridiculously tough. I'm no great fighter but I had 20 am fights and have decent skills. sparring these guys was fcuking hard. They are tough as nails. And they know where they are in the ring. Even to say guys at these level have "no skills" is wrong...so saying a guy like judah has no skills or little skills is just plain ******ed.

imagine what it would be like at Judah's level... the levels of speed, power and ring savvy...are off the charts...

I've even seen guys on here (NSB obviously) being serious trying to claim they would last a couple rounds with a guy like Roman Gonzalez...lmfao..you wouldnt even last a couple rounds with me

[IronDanHamza]

i don't get how people on this site can say guys at judah's level have "little skills"

like wtf...you don't get to that level without a lot of skill.

What level?

[IronDanHamza]

Again i don't wanna sound like Rockin here but people who have never trained really have very little comprehension of how GOOD these guys are at fighting.

case in point: Ive sparred a couple of low level pros, guys with like 5-10 pro fights, some with losing records, who would be referred to as "bums" on here.

These guys were strong as hell, hit HARD and were ridiculously tough. I'm no great fighter but I had 20 am fights and have decent skills. sparring these guys was fcuking hard. They are tough as nails. And they know where they are in the ring. Even to say guys at these level have "no skills" is wrong...so saying a guy like judah has no skills or little skills is just plain ******ed.

imagine what it would be like at Judah's level... the levels of speed, power and ring savvy...are off the charts...

I've even seen guys on here (NSB obviously) being serious trying to claim they would last a couple rounds with a guy like Roman Gonzalez...lmfao..you wouldnt even last a couple rounds with me

You have no idea on who has and hasn't done what.

And obviously when we talk about these fighters we're talking on the wide scale.

[billeau2]

Who exactly did Judah beat prior to Tszyu that would put him anywhere near the level of Mayweather? He lost to Tszyu because he was tested by a top fighter and failed. That defines Judah. Nothing in his career before or after indicates anything other than that.

judah did not have any victory over a top fighter, but his skills were observable and he fought well enough against the comp he faced to establish his skill level. There are other fighters who one could put in this category such as Tyson.

My point is not to say Judah was a great fighter, its just to distinguish his career as a whole as a point of comparison, versus when he was obviously very skilled. Its also to establish that the version of Judah that Zoo fought was regarded as a top level fighter in this regard...At the time of this fight Judah was cited as being at this level, that much is a fact.

Now, what is debatable is whether Zoo just happened to luck out and expose a weak opponent. This is a matter of opinion and I guess we just disagree on this point. certainly if we took fighters like Left Hook Lacy we can see that fighters appearing as very good can be exposed.

But I am not saying Judah is on Mayweather's level, I am saying that when Judah was at his best he was physically capable of being a challenging fight for a fighter of Mayweather's calabre because of his physical gifts. I also think that the fact that a shell of Judah giving Mayweather some problems is indicative of this point. The context of this was Zoo's ability and his competition.

[billeau2]

Outstanding fighter with elite skills? Based on what?

Thar's like saying Adrien Broner was an outstanding fighter with elite skills until Maidana battered him.

Zab Judah has never shown elite skills. Never.

He has very little skill.

I never said outstanding fighter are you laughing at yourself? I explained it to you and will do so one more time because you are asking me questions I already answered about a matter of disagreement and not of fact.

Judah at the time when he fought Zoo did have outstanding physical skills. You seem to think this was a matter of his handspeed...ok. People at that time saw Judah as having power, great punching technique, speed and ring smarts. He was walking through the division, but more important he was showing technical excellence. The problems with Judah had not emerged yet and while I would never compare him to mayweather over the length of a career, at his best I believe he would not be outclassed by mayweather...You seem to think the problems a shell of Judah gave Mayweather are not relevant, I think they were.... so be it, different opinions.

Maybe we have differnt ideas about "outclassed" but to me "outclassed and exposed" is Jeff Lacey getting beat by Calzighe....two different fighters at totally different levels. A prime Judah I believe would be a handful for floyd and floyd did not, imo outclass Judah in their fight. Again its a matter of opinion but look at Left hook lacy, look at Judah after their respective fights...thats my basis for comparison.

Ok lets talk about Bronner since this is new ground. Judah breeezed through his comp, Bronner got his hand raised at least three times when he could have lost the fight. Judah was fighting in one of the more competative divisions when he was coming up, Bronner does not even have a division and tries to fight below his weight. So there is very little basis for comparison really.

When Bronner fought Madianna, who we can say for the sake of argument is equivalent to jab stepping up to Zoo, Bronner had already shown he was not a dominant fighter. Zab had not been touched yet and dominated up until his fight with Zoo.

Having elite level skills does not always make an elite fighter. Dawson is another example of this.