Was Ali-Liston fixed?

[joeandthebums]

Do you think it was just sweat?

Felix had been in and around the sport long enough to know the difference - and if he said it was sweat, as the only neutral person, then I place a lot of value in his comments.

Ali didn't seem to show any issue with his eyes until he returned to the corner at the end of the fourth where he got a bit dramatic.

I don't know really what to make of it, I would lean towards Ali play-acting to encourage Liston to use what little energy he had left looking to finish him whilst vulnerable.

But if that was the case surely Ali would of claimed such as he was never a modest man and I'm not aware that he ever has.

[Humean]

Felix had been in and around the sport long enough to know the difference - and if he said it was sweat, as the only neutral person, then I place a lot of value in his comments.

Ali didn't seem to show any issue with his eyes until he returned to the corner at the end of the fourth where he got a bit dramatic.

I don't know really what to make of it, I would lean towards Ali play-acting to encourage Liston to use what little energy he had left looking to finish him whilst vulnerable.

But if that was the case surely Ali would of claimed such as he was never a modest man and I'm not aware that he ever has.

Would a referee want to admit to missing something though?

I honestly find it hard to doubt that Ali genuinely had something badly irritating his eyes, maybe it could have been just sweat but his reaction seemed a bit too extreme for that so I find the Morsel's solution to be the best bet.

[Ray Corso]

The solution doesn't need to be on the Sonny's gloves, his shoulders would work just fine. Ali has a habit since he was a kid to whip his forehead with his right glove. As a pro this was an indication that he was ready to trade punches!!
When he opened his stance and whipped over his brow he was going to open
up with shots. His gloves could be foulded with a solution when touching Listons shoulders and he could be involuntarily blinding himself. Theres lots of senerio's to choose from in both bouts.
Bottom line is Ali's greatness was staged as a 19-0 kid beat and stopped the scariest Heavyweight at that time and he did with blazing foot & hand speed and a knowledge of distance and when to strike. A huge Willie Pep!
Ray

[Scott9945]

Didn't Liston get up but Jersey Joe Walcott screwed up the count?

More like Walcott screwed up the count so Liston got up. Sonny was definitely down for what should have been the ten count. When Walcott didn't do his job, he got up and attempted to defend himself. That was when a magazine publisher convinced Walcott to stop the fight on the basis of a count out which never really happened.

[MrTambourineMan]

More like Walcott screwed up the count so Liston got up. Sonny was definitely down for what should have been the ten count. When Walcott didn't do his job, he got up and attempted to defend himself. That was when a magazine publisher convinced Walcott to stop the fight on the basis of a count out which never really happened.

Thanks. Yeah, my memory of reading about this was hazy.

[Jim Jeffries]

Thanks. Yeah, my memory of reading about this was hazy.

The way I remember it was Ali caught Liston off balance and he went down, but didn't look hurt. Walcott starts the count, but Ali is standing over Liston ready to hit him when he gets up.



Walcott finally gets Ali to a neutral corner and starts to count on Liston. Sonny beats the count, but people tell Walcott that Liston has been down a total of more than 15 seconds. Joe stops the fight.

There were at least 2 times that Liston started to get up, only to lay back down when it looked like Ali was going to hit him before he could get to his feet.

[Humean]

The way I remember it was Ali caught Liston off balance and he went down, but didn't look hurt. Walcott starts the count, but Ali is standing over Liston ready to hit him when he gets up.



Walcott finally gets Ali to a neutral corner and starts to count on Liston. Sonny beats the count, but people tell Walcott that Liston has been down a total of more than 15 seconds. Joe stops the fight.

There were at least 2 times that Liston started to get up, only to lay back down when it looked like Ali was going to hit him before he could get to his feet.

The punch landed flush, Liston fell over after his first attempt to get up due to a loss of balance not because of the threat of Ali punching him, Walcott had briefly got Ali away towards a corner when Liston made that first attempt. If you look at Liston's legs when he is finally on his feet he is swaying backwards slightly, he was clearly badly hurt.

I can understand why it all seemed strange at the time because few saw the punch land, and it was a strange punch, but we can all now see good quality footage of the punch. I don't see why there should be any controversy anymore.

[Jim Jeffries]

The punch landed flush, Liston fell over after his first attempt to get up due to a loss of balance not because of the threat of Ali punching him, Walcott had briefly got Ali away towards a corner when Liston made that first attempt. If you look at Liston's legs when he is finally on his feet he is swaying backwards slightly, he was clearly badly hurt.

I can understand why it all seemed strange at the time because few saw the punch land, and it was a strange punch, but we can all now see good quality footage of the punch. I don't see why there should be any controversy anymore.

Well the fight happened long before I was born, but like you say there is good quality video available. People shouldn't take our (quite conflicting) words for it, they should judge for themselves.

The punch

Looks like an arm punch to me, Liston puts his arms forward to catch his fall.


The whole fight. Punch happens at about 7min15sec.

[Ben Bolt]

Ali-Liston II

Actually, at first Walcott did the right thing, not starting a count over Liston as Ali refused to go to neutral corner. Liston was never counted out and the fight should have continued.

But, then a stressed Walcott acted wrongly, listening to The Ring editor Nat Fleisher who at ringside shouted that Liston had been down for more than 10 sec.
Fleisher, who really was just a spectator and should have been ignored, was in a way the ref that stopped the fight that night.

[Ray Corso]

.."Looks like an arm punch to me"..........me too but when your moving forward with your chin over your feet and your chin gets clipped with a perfect punch you will go down! I don't think the punch has the finish to keep him down but the fall was legit! Just look at Listons right flank shake from the punches impact, you can't fake that!
Text book right over a jab and no one did that better than Ali.
Ray