Was Ali-Liston fixed?

[KnockoutNed]

Honestly it just looked like Liston quit when he realized he had no chance of winning.

[joeandthebums]

He got battered and then they slipped liniment in Clays eyes to give Liston a chance to catch him. Dundee got his eyes cleared and oncve Clay was ok he pounded the hell out of Liston and lumped him up and made him quit on the stool.

"I would say that Clay showed a desire to retire in the fourth round, when he charged Liston with having rubbed liniment or some other volatile, sight disturbing liquid on Sonny's gloves.

There was no foreign substance on the gloves. I smelled them. I chewed into them. I Know."

- Barney Felix, Referee of the first Liston-Ali contest

[billeau2]

"I would say that Clay showed a desire to retire in the fourth round, when he charged Liston with having rubbed liniment or some other volatile, sight disturbing liquid on Sonny's gloves.

There was no foreign substance on the gloves. I smelled them. I chewed into them. I Know."

- Barney Felix, Referee of the first Liston-Ali contest

Whats nice about this info is that it is a type of proof that this fight was legit. They say Dundee was a great motivator!

[Humean]

The most plausible explanation for Ali's eye problem in the first fight is the use of Monsel's solution in the Liston corner, probably not a deliberate measure to blind Ali.

[Ray Corso]

Monsel solution was an earlier substance to slow a cut down. It didn't really work as well as Adrenilan but it was used on tips and applied with pressure. However I think it was sulfer based and that would burn like the ****ens. Ali was very upset in the corner and wanted the gloves "cut off"! His eyes were burning up and thats clearly heard over the mics.
Liston was cut under the eye so its possible there was no malice involved but back then a cornermans "gamesmenship" was a big part of the game. Corners can and do win fights, just as Dundee did with the wash out and instructions to "run until your eyes clear"!!!
There is no doubt that Angelo Dundee is one of the best cornerman ever, he was a great motivator, he could breakdown an opponent and he would try to goive two main direction per round. One on offense and one on defense unless a more serious need was evident. Dundee was also a very good cutman in his earlier career as a cornerman.
Ray

[Humean]

Monsel solution was an earlier substance to slow a cut down. It didn't really work as well as Adrenilan but it was used on tips and applied with pressure. However I think it was sulfer based and that would burn like the ****ens. Ali was very upset in the corner and wanted the gloves "cut off"! His eyes were burning up and thats clearly heard over the mics.
Liston was cut under the eye so its possible there was no malice involved but back then a cornermans "gamesmenship" was a big part of the game. Corners can and do win fights, just as Dundee did with the wash out and instructions to "run until your eyes clear"!!!
There is no doubt that Angelo Dundee is one of the best cornerman ever, he was a great motivator, he could breakdown an opponent and he would try to goive two main direction per round. One on offense and one on defense unless a more serious need was evident. Dundee was also a very good cutman in his earlier career as a cornerman.
Ray

Foul play certainlly cannot be ruled out but it is just as plausible, and probably more so, that it was just an accident so I think Liston and his corner should be presumed innocent.

I was under the impressin that Morsel's solution could work extremely well in a particular instance but that it simply caused long term damage to the tissues and was therefore ultimately self-defeating. Cutman back then did seem to have all kinds of personalized solutions, i'm not sure if there were actually any rules and regulations then to prevent various things like there are now.

[MrTambourineMan]

Didn't Liston get up but Jersey Joe Walcott screwed up the count?

[joeandthebums]

"As the bell ended for the fourth round he began complaining that Liston had rubbed liniment on his gloves and into Clay's eyes. He complained to Angelo Dundee, his second, who in turn advised me of the situation.

I walked into Liston's corner during this rest period, smelled his gloves and even tasted them. There was nothing but sweat on the gloves and so I notified Dundee.

When the bell for the fifth round sounded Clay remained seated on his stool. I walked towards his corner yelling, "Get out here and fight, Clay, or I'll count you out".

At this moment Angelo pushed him off the stool and yelled, "Get out there and fight".

Clay moved around rubbing his eyes to make his charge look good and managed to keep away from Liston, who was coming in for the kill. However, Liston was not in condition, and the rest is history."

- Barney Felix, Referee of the first Liston-Ali contest

[Humean]

"As the bell ended for the fourth round he began complaining that Liston had rubbed liniment on his gloves and into Clay's eyes. He complained to Angelo Dundee, his second, who in turn advised me of the situation.

I walked into Liston's corner during this rest period, smelled his gloves and even tasted them. There was nothing but sweat on the gloves and so I notified Dundee.

When the bell for the fifth round sounded Clay remained seated on his stool. I walked towards his corner yelling, "Get out here and fight, Clay, or I'll count you out".

At this moment Angelo pushed him off the stool and yelled, "Get out there and fight".

Clay moved around rubbing his eyes to make his charge look good and managed to keep away from Liston, who was coming in for the kill. However, Liston was not in condition, and the rest is history."

- Barney Felix, Referee of the first Liston-Ali contest

Do you think it was just sweat?

[jiopsi]

I think so, certainly possible, there was too many things pointing to it at the time.